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What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

Article about: That is what I would expect to see as well. With the marking underneath the langet with an orientation that permits the logo being able to be read holding the sword with the point up instead

  1. #21

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    There's some issues I now can see with your saber...notice under the langet. It appears someone might have removed what I imagine was the origian Krebs MM. Note the ricasso area under the reverse langet. This begs the question is the entire Rath stamping also a postwar embellishment? I don't know. But I am certain those sigrunes are fake. The more I see, the less I like this piece. It's been messed with too much for my liking. It equates to defacing the blade and the more manipulation there is the more it effects the overall value of the saber.

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  3. #22

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    You are undoubtedly the expert here. How would a person get rid of the original Krebs marks?

  4. #23

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Does the the mark under the Langet feel rough or smooth like someone has been grinding/polishing it?
    if the rath marking is a post war embelishment they did a good job!

  5. #24

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    The area under the langet is rough. You can see surface variations but if you put a straight edge on it you find its flat. Looks to me like that part of the blade wasnt polished, or the plating or coating wasnt finished.

    Could this have been put together out of parts?
    Last edited by ncblksmth1; 09-03-2010 at 01:19 PM.

  6. #25

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Swordfish. Thanks for your opinion.

    I got the sword from a guy out in the country who's "father-in-law had it in a closet. He had it since WWII. He was at the Battle of the Bulge." The son thought it was some sort of US sword the realized that nazi thing was there so he dropped his price. I did not haggle. 100.00 was his asking price. If he or his F-n-law had done the markings he would have asked a lot more money. So I dont think these guys did the marking. Incidentally the guy had pictures of his F-n-Law in the military WWII with the sword. I do a little buying and selling and he sold me a 100 year old violin very cheaply. This is the history of the sword as I know it as of right now.

    Now the sword could have been assembled at a later date out of parts I guess.

  7. #26

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    I think just the blade might have been messed with.
    But anyway you got genuine sword at a good price
    with some history and these swords make great display
    Very interesting field to collect with so many patterns and variations
    and still good value for money

  8. #27

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    What does a Krebs MM look like

  9. #28

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Here you go.

    Cheers, Ade.
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture What Kind of sword is this?   Yea I know its German WWII.  

  10. #29

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    That marking seems to be about 1/64" deep maybe a little less. Wouldnt you have to dish the area around that mark or replane the blade making the spine un even?

    Could my sword be made by Rath?

  11. #30

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Ade posted the correct TM found on Krebs blades.

    1st off, Rath did not manufacture edged weapons. Rath was simply a "reseller", a distributer as we would call it.

    It's a decent Heer pattern saber. I would question the story though with respect the validity of a bring home strait from the battle of the bulge. Defacing the Krebs MM, then restamping the sigrunes diamond, and possibly the application of the Rath distributer mark is NOT something a GI would have done. GIs did NOT have the kind of in depth knowledge of German sabers, the makers, dist. marks, etc. Clearly, this was done post-war, my guess, in the United States.

    Someone ground off the original Krebs maker mark, with what tool I have no idea. I think this question that needs to asked is this: Was the Herm. Rath distributer mark actually applied for the Rath distribution firm prior to selling the piece to the German officer? Or did this saber simply appear as a Krebs Nr. 3, complete with the Krebs maker mark, where we'd expect to find it (on the reverse ricasso, under the reverse langet), until after the war when someone ground it off and stamped the Rath mark + the fake sigrunes stamp?. There is no doubt that the sigrunes lightning bolts are a post war embellishment. I wouldn't even debate that point since it couldn't have happened. The Herm Rath stamping may or may not be period applied. We just won't know either way. Why did someone remove the Krebs maker mark stamping?

    I think either way what needs to be considered is that someone, along the way, knew enough about German sabers, knew enough about the Rath distribution makr, knew enough about Rath marked Police degens and knew enough about the connection between the distributer, Rath in this case, and the SS proofed police degens, often found with the Rath dist. mark. Krebs also made Police degens. No matter how one looks at this piece, we know with absolutee certainty it's been "messed with" post war, clearly with the intent to commit some sort of fraud. We KNOW thos sigrunes are a post war embellishment. Whe know someone removed the Krebs logo (like the same person that added the sigrunes inspection stamp). What we don't know is if the Rath distribution mark was applied by Rath and the saber distributed by Rath, or is the entire Rath and sigrunes proofing stamp all a post war addition.

    It's been defaced, and I am 100% certain it's been defaced by a collector who has some knowledge about such things. This knowledge is somewhat inane in that most collectors will not make the connection unless they are familiar with both the Rath distribution firm, the Krebs edged weapons firm, and the SS proofing on Police degens with the Rath marking. It's pretty advanced stuff, and no GI would know anything remotely about this, unless after the war, he become an astoot, well read collector.

    So, the piece needs to be taken at face value. It's an Army officer saber through and through, which someone defaced to one degree or another, with the intent to defraud. It will effect value, and the defacement would be enough to keep my away from the saber. i am a pretty picky Heer saber collector and consider myself somewhat advanced in this specific sub-genre of NS era Army saber collecting. That said, I think you still got a good price for the piece, even considering its blade was partially defaced. It will never sell for $500, the price a Krebs Nr. 3 in excellent conditioned would, however, for someone happy to own a middle of the road Army officer pattern, it fits the bill as a representative piece.

    I know alot of this stuff sounds technical, that's because it is. As I said, someone with some degree of advanced knowledge messed with this saber. It would be nice to know the full, honest story behind the piece, when, who, how, and exactly why the blades maker mark was removed, and the SS sigrunes proofing stamp was applied. WE'll never know if the Rath stamping is legit, war-time applied- but my gut says it is, and that the saber was bought by Rath from Krebs for resale by the Rath firm.


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