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What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

Article about: That is what I would expect to see as well. With the marking underneath the langet with an orientation that permits the logo being able to be read holding the sword with the point up instead

  1. #31

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Here is the Rath trademark on a German Police sword. Does it look like it was struck with the same exact stamping die as the sword posted here? Not that I can see (and the one on the saber seems to be a little off center and possibly slightly tilted as well).

    SS officer's sabers had been replaced by the SS Leaderís Sword in 1936. And it was not until 1938 that the German Police swords were authorized, with the first ones being made by a maker other than Rath, who was a little later.

    So is the sword posted here somehow a sword that ended up with an 'SS' marking, or is it simply a blank one that somebody a long time ago decided to ďenhanceĒ?

    There may be more to the story. So if possible, I would still like to see as close as possible to the stamping, and more of the surrounding surfaces, and especially underneath the langets. FP
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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  3. #32

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Send email and I will send more photos.

    Tell me what to send you.

  4. #33

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Is there a way to safely dissasemble the sword handle/grips without damaging them?

  5. #34

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Don't attempt a disassembly. You need to have a working knowledge of unpeening and repeening tang-Pguard assemblies, or else you'll end up regretting it. Believe me.

    Fred- as we'd expect to see with respect to that Rath dist. marked degen. This krebs 3 in question, i still stand by my vote. Those sigrunes ss inspection stamps are a post-war embellishment. I do however believe it's quite likely the Rath distribution mark is period, as we often see Krebs manufactured pieces with Rath dist. markings. As I said a few responses back, if the SS inspection stamp were leigitimate, it would change alot of long held beliefs we have in the Heer saber field. I've seen alot of embellished period pieces, with the phony ss inspection stamp, which were done to merely increase the value.

    At the end of the day, we need to look at the facts. Prima facia, the fact that the Kreb maker mark has been manipulated, post-war, in the effort to remove it's manufacturing lineage, speaks volumes to the fact that this piece has been post-war engineered.

    Tom

  6. #35

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Tom, As I think you may know, the SS Kulturzeichen (intertwined SS sigrunen) have been discussed long and hard in multiple venues over a long period of time. With a lot of what had been believed to be true now discredited or in serious doubt.

    And within a fairly narrow set of parameters they are (or can be) legitimate - but for the most part, as you say, there has been a lot faking going on for a very long time

    PS: Something that was not picked up on that I think you may have some additional information on is the brass hilt. When did they phase them out? Do we know, or is it variable by maker?

    As for what pictures would be helpful in this case itís the whole blade, which special attention to all of the markings and underneath the langets. And maybe one of the pommel button. Attached is a sample image of what I would like - which was one of the very rare time times I was actually successful at getting a reasonably decent closeup. But I will take what I can get, fully understanding how difficult it can be to get good images.

    My email is: XXXXfprinz2000@yahoo.comXXXX (delete the Xís) FP
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  7. #36

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    And the marking by itself. FP
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  8. #37

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Here are some photos of the blade straight on and of the areas under the langet. Take a look. It appears the Herm,Rath and the intertwined runes are stamped off center.
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  9. #38

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    The third photo shows a possible double stamp/rebound error.

  10. #39

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    First, thank you for taking the extra images which does help us in trying to figure out just what it is that we are looking at. Typically the blades were (machine) roll stamped which is fairly consistent in depth like the example I showed. (However, sometimes you might see where the blade could be canted at one angle or another, which could affect the depth, but it was still consistent.) And they would then usually receive their final polish which in most cases would tend to level out the high spots caused by the stamping.

    But that is not the sense I am getting here from the images. And maybe itís just the lighting? But are there areas where there is plating like underneath the langet? And other places where itís just polished steel? FP
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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  11. #40

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Fred my friend,
    I don't think we have a solid date- per se. Was brass eventually was listed as a stregic metal, as aluminum was at an early date, as need for the aircraft industry? Somewhere I have the date and a copy of the order with respect to listing aluminum as an essential strategic metal.

    It's interesting actually seeing the proofing stamp at a better angle and under better light. It very much reminds me of the phony double strike sigrune stampings i've seen on a few slotted Eickhorn police bayos, also, below the Eickhorn TM.

    You raise an interesting point with regards to the possibilty of an ill angled blade during the stamping process of the sigrune proof. I can't recall seeing a period ss proofing stamp on a blade which illustrated a clear disparity in depth throughout. Looking at that stamping more and more it looks infact like a double strike, possibly with the blade resting at an agle due to the tapering of the edge as opposed to thicker girth on the spine. A closer inspection of the Rath stamping also appears to illustrates a disparity in stamping depth from edge to spine. Also note the lower legs of each bolt, appear to be bleed into contact with the diamond frame. It's actually a dirty stamping through and through when studying the proofing under magnification. I have yet to see a legitimate proofing that appears to be this poorly stamped.

    Fred- have you ever come accross a period ss proofed Army pattern in your tenure as a saber collector? I never have. Thinking back to the various early silver lionhead SS attributed sabers, I still cannot recall seeing any proofing on these earlier- though i'm not sure that the SS would be proofing those items that early...but not sure. Perhaps someone else can elaborate on that quesiton. At anyrate, I have never come accross a Heer pattern with a sigrune inspection stamp which has been accepted as genuine. If someone has ever seen one, which has been accepted as period, i'd love to hear about it, and what the various theories on it would be.

    I'm not a believer as of this point. Perhaps someone will have some quantifiable data which will change my belief.
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