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What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

Article about: That is what I would expect to see as well. With the marking underneath the langet with an orientation that permits the logo being able to be read holding the sword with the point up instead

  1. #51

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Sudsy amonia is just about what the name implies. It's amonia, which is...well,..sudsy.

    It can be bought at most supermarkets, Wallyworlds, and so forth. However, I prefer to craft my concoction myself, in order to control the degree of amonia strength, the degree of "sudsyness", and the H20 ratio.

    Before I go any further, I can't stress enough how important it is to keep the grip and the immediate area around the grip dry. If this were 1938 and the piece just rolled off the production line, a little exposure to rain or the elements wouldn't be of such concern. These pieces are roughly 70 years old and as such, are susceptible to damage caused by moisture and the elements.

    Anywhooooo as the late Phil Hartmann would say.....

    1- Buy some plain amonia..the $1.25 jug from Wally, etc.
    2- Find some dish soap- PREFERABLY the unscented type since the "flavored" types like Ruby Grapefruit Ajax contain sugar which can cause probelms. I've used both, and have never had problems- though I only resort to the scented types when i'm out of unscented.
    3- A very soft toothbrush. Not a fancy one, just your run-of-the-mill $1.00 type. It can be used over and over for years.

    We'll work under the assumption you utilize a standard amount of H20- say 1 cup. Ratios can vary, so when you start, you want to ehr on the side of cuation. Your concoction should be something like 1 cup warm water + 1/5 cup of amonia+ 2-4 drops of your unscented dish soap. Mix this up in a mug or bowl, and it will become sudsy from the soap. You'll smell the amonia clearly in your concoction.

    I typically work with my mug of my homemade sudsy, 1 mug of cool plain water, my toothbrush, a few paper towels, a soft, clean and dry rag.

    I'll dip the toothbrush in the concoction, and then begin to gently scrub the portion of the hilt, 1 section at a time, I wish to both clean and brighten up. I let it sit on the hilt section for about 3-5 minutes, then dip the paper towel in clean water and proceed to pat down and wipe off the sudsy which is on the portion of the hilt I began with. I then dry the area with the clean rag, when i'm satisfied all the sudsy is off the area i just worked. I will also sometimes use an additional rag to cover the black celluloid grip, and the area around it, sealing it off to prevent any moisture from creaping into the grip area. I then proceed to follow the first steps until I am satisfied with the results.

    Depending on the saber and it's base material as well as what degree of original factory giltins is intact,I might use a strong formula with more amonia. The more amonia, the more it will brighten up bare brass. For a saber retaining most of it's gilting, i'll use a gentle formula like the ration I stated earlier in this response.

    Always select a test area. A few points to remember. 1- the sudsy will need a little bit of time to do it's job once applied to the portion of the hilt selected. 2- It's critical to remove all of the sudsy concoction with the clean water. 3- Areas like the grip ferrule are dicey as they pos an immediate access are to the grips wooden core. You can't see it under there, but I assure you it's open- the same holds true at the top of the grip below the pommel/backstrap assembly. 4- Do the best you can to prevent any splash back when scrubbing with the toothbrus, from flying or dripping into the grip, under the ferrule, or into the pommel. 5- Not to be used on the grip wire nor the blade. It's only to be used on gilted hilts. 6- Be patient, and go slow. Be meathodical.

    That's the long and short of it. Sabers and daggers are birds of different feathers. I typically won't do much to a dagger short of intervening to suspend any oxidation that will cause damage down the road. Heer sabers are a bit different. The vast majority...like 99% of us, would rather have a Heer saber with her factory gilting looking nice. They sell for alot more when they do. People who use agents like Semichrome, will inadvertantly damage the remaining gilting...and once it's gone, it's gone! There is a BIG difference between a "shiny" hilt which is nothing more than pollished brass, and "shiny" hilts which retain thier factory gilt. Big difference and this should be a factor when thinking about utilizing this process or not.

    I can't think of much more with regards to the formula and the technique. Use caution go slow. Take your time, do it right, protect areas of the saber prone to damage from moisture.

    I often will use a museum grade wax for preservation. Storage and display is also critical. Alot of very bad things can happen when stored and displayed improperly. Never use oil. It WILL damage blades- i've seen it, i've done it. Don't use it. Nickel plated blades can tollerate a lite pollishing from a lightly abrassive agent. I alway apply the wax to the blade, and depending on circumstances, I might also apply a light layer of wax to various parts of the hilt assembly. Dust, humidity, sunlight, etc., will damage sabers.

    I hope this has been of some help. Use the info at your own risk everyone. It's learning process and my meathod took me many years to develope, based on many discussion with fellow saber collectors using an array of techniques which my peers use. Sort of the best of all worlds.

    Now i've gotta' run. I'm getting carpal tunnel and that's no good.

    Maybe tommorrow i'll give a lesson on applying fake patina using only natural, easily accessed materials from our homes producing a very convincing fakely induced patina....hmmm, probably not. The crooks, fakers, and thieves don't need more help improving on thier scam selling parts daggers and so forth.

    Tom

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  3. #52

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Thanks Tom. Good useful info.

    Cheers, Ade.

  4. #53

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    No worries Ade. Hopefully there was some info in the body of our discussion which helped out a fellow collector.

    Ade, how's mum? Hopefully things have been sorted out.
    Take care my friend,
    Tom

  5. #54

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Hi Tom, Mum is now doing good thanks! She is now home.

    I know the fake patina article will be of interest too.

    Cheers, Ade.

  6. #55

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    It has been suggested that there is another theory on this sword. One that may have been overlooked. It could very well be a special order sword. Just because it dosent fit the norm dosent make it a fake or embellished. Herm Rath could have had a large number of sword blades to make swords with. He might have gotten a special order and used this blade and handle combination to make that order. Special Orders like those from Winchester, Sharps, Springfield Armory, etc. . . seldom fit the norm and that dosent make them fakes.

    How about this option?

  7. #56

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    The SS sigrune stamping was not something that would appear on a blade, then be recirculated into the ranks of the Wehrmacht. The SS sigrune approval stamping would not be placed on an item, not intended for police/SS use, especially on a later example Army blade. The blades used for both Police degens and SS degens were entirely different- infact they were "schwert"-esque, not "sabel"-esque. Going full circle, it will be very difficult to convince a serious Heer sabel collector that those sigrunes are legit. I would need some compelling evidence, data, or period literature to convince me at this point.

    I'd like to hear the rest of the persons story and why he speculates that. For me, it just don't add up.

  8. #57

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Here is the text/email I recieved from a noted collector/Seller.


    "Thanks for your email and the pictures of your sword. The sword appears to be a standard Army officer dove head type. The mark of Hermann Rath is extremely unusual to be found on an Army sword, as Rath was a distributor of German Police swords. They did not make anything, but rather acted as a seller. They were approved by the SS to sell Police swords, thus the stamping found on the blades sold through their firm. They would have had a large contract with a Solingen blade producer to make the swords for them and to put the Rath marking on the blade.

    It appears to me that maybe someone in the German army was close to a Rath employee and may have wanted to order his sword through this company. Most German companies would not turn down business if they could help it. Chances are they simply asked the officer what he wanted, and merely ordered the sword through the same blade company that ordinarily made their Police swords.

    That is my best guess. Is this sword for sale?"


    This may not change the value of the sword but it surely would explain the possiblility of it being marked during or before the war. As for being exact about it. Yes papers and a dead body to tell us it was his would be nice. Do ALL SS swords fall within certain specifications, and or have paperwork? Probably not. Yes caution is advised.

  9. #58

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    The information that collector passed onto you is not accurate. I believe he/she is misinformed with respect to Heer pattern sabers dating from NS era Germany. I have no interest in any type of open debate with the gentleman/lady who provided you that email at the moment, but I will say it's not correct.

    I'm saying this though publicly: your saber is a decent looking example. Take it for what it is- a Heer officer/NCO pattern dress saber. I would write off any connection to the Schutzstaffel. If it were my saber, I would discount that sigrune stamping hands down, 100%, and appreciate the example for what it is- an Army officer pattern which would make a decent display saber.

    Discussing SS degens, Police degens, early silver lionheaded SS piece, and like topics would need to be in an entirely different thread. It's a very long, in depth super supb-genre of the saber collecting arena. There is alot to know, alot of data, alot of manufacturing information, and regulatory statutes the German government adopted regarding the honor degens. It would be entirely too overwhelming to broach that subject at the present time.

    As it relates to $$ involved, think of Heer officer pattern sabers in the hundreds of $$. Now, think of SS honor degens in the thousands of $$. Big disparity in value, by virtue of the numbers manufactured, and the Himmler connection with the honor degens.

    I honestly would love to be proven wrong on this piece because it would really make things interesting and further our knowledge of this sub-genre of the edged weapons collecting at large. That said, it's going to be very very difficult to do so with respect to this piece.
    Last edited by Swordfish; 09-27-2010 at 11:10 AM.

  10. #59

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Attached is a photo of a NS era Heer dovehead pattern, with the Rath marking under the reverse langet..more along the lines of what I would expect to see.



    I read Thorstens response, which deals with the proofing stamps we see on Ehredegens and Polizeidegens, which is a good explanation of those facts. Though he didn't address the sabers markings in question.

  11. #60

    Default Re: What Kind of sword is this? Yea I know its German WWII.

    Here is the text/email I recieved from a noted collector/Seller: "Thanks for your email and the pictures of your sword. The sword appears to be a standard Army officer dove head type. The mark of Hermann Rath is extremely unusual to be found on an Army sword, as Rath was a distributor of German Police swords. They did not make anything, but rather acted as a seller. They were approved by the SS to sell Police swords, thus the stamping found on the blades sold through their firm. They would have had a large contract with a Solingen blade producer to make the swords for them and to put the Rath marking on the blade.

    It appears to me that maybe someone in the German army was close to a Rath employee and may have wanted to order his sword through this company. Most German companies would not turn down business if they could help it. Chances are they simply asked the officer what he wanted, and merely ordered the sword through the same blade company that ordinarily made their Police swords.............."
    Tom, As regards the "SS" markings. Is that the response from Thorsten that you are making reference to? Or is it something else entirely? Best Regards, FP

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