WW1 German Imperial Saw tooth Short Sword

**tony75** · 08-05-2018, 02:03 PM

Hello
What are your thoughts on this sword?
No markings anywhere that I can see.
I can not find anything to compare it to.
Thank you very much
Tony

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 08-05-2018 02:03 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**christek** · 08-05-2018, 02:26 PM

At quick glance it appears as what is sometimes called a M1852 Faschinenmesser. The hilt is certainly of that pattern although I have yet to see one with a blade like that. The scabbard is also not of the leather with brass fittings type usually seen.

**mathat** · 08-05-2018, 05:54 PM

thats quite a sword are these kind of Saw toothed illegal to use in war?...

**Frogprince** · 08-06-2018, 07:56 AM

While they were originally copied from functional short swords. This example is a Fire Dept. (Feuerwehr) dress sidearm with token (not really functional) sawteeth. Sometimes they are seen with different style handles. If when it was made somehow there was a conflict with the Geneva Convention - as a non-military/government acquisition of dubious value as a saw, I don't see from my perspective that it would be in violation. Best Regards, Fred

**Larry C** · 08-06-2018, 10:23 AM

Would this be Imperial Fred ? ….. so as to find a correct forum to place this thread into ?

Regards Larry

**Frogprince** · 08-06-2018, 05:31 PM

by Larry C

Would this be Imperial Fred ? ….. so as to find a correct forum to place this thread into ?

Regards Larry

Larry, IMO most probably Imperial era manufacture and use - it might get a little as they say "complicated". Not a specialist in this specific area (Fire Dept.) as a generalist - a number of Imperial era items continued to be used in the Weimar era as well as into the TR era. For the civilian sector the NSDAP political items more or less leading the transitional wave that was still fairly active in later 1930's. So for now, maybe leaving it temporally where it is while more information is gathered is a viable option? Best Regards, Fred

**Larry C** · 08-07-2018, 03:28 AM

Fair enough and will wait for more input

**mathat** · 08-07-2018, 08:24 PM

by Frogprince

While they were originally copied from functional short swords. This example is a Fire Dept. (Feuerwehr) dress sidearm with token (not really functional) sawteeth. Sometimes they are seen with different style handles. If when it was made somehow there was a conflict with the Geneva Convention - as a non-military/government acquisition of dubious value as a saw, I don't see from my perspective that it would be in violation. Best Regards, Fred

ok i was just remembering that some sawteeth sword or knifes would deen illegal well anyways...

**Frogprince** · 08-08-2018, 06:47 AM

by Larry C

Would this be Imperial Fred ? ….. so as to find a correct forum to place this thread into ?

Regards Larry

Larry, I was hoping for a really simple explanation of the problems some kinds of items might have in trying to categorize them. But after some thought (I will try and keep it short). Related in many aspects to the German Police before the TR era, the Police themselves were a diverse group of organizations scattered all over Germany before 1936 when it became both more organized and centralized. However it was not until 1938 when the German Police saw the introduction of a new pattern sword (for them). The point here being that the operations/character of the Fire Departments evolved, but it was more in response to the actual needs of Germany.

That said, Fire Departments were not that easy to organize and/or control - and especially some of the smaller elements were more or less on their own (as resources became scarcer) and not just at the village level, but sometimes assigned to or from individual factories and even the Hitler Youth. Also noting that this sidearm has a steel scabbard instead of the leather and metal fittings common to Imperial items, which probably tilts to later versus earlier. With that said, IMO the thread really needs some specialized expertise from a more in-depth Fire Dept. specialist. (Someone who knows more than just the TM's that are seen on the different Faschinenmesser.) Best Regards, Fred

**Anderson** · 08-08-2018, 09:29 AM

What we have here is a faschinemesser full of contradictions. Firstly the hilt; as others have pointed out this cast brass hilt is exactly of the type used on the Prussian M1849 and M1852 Artillery faschinemesser. But the problem is the blade is not. A true faschinemesser of the era would have been unfullered, single edged with possibly sawback on the unsharpened back edge. In this example we have a fairly sophisticated deeply fullered double edge blade. Which has had a clip point added and a symbolic saw edge on one side. Symbolic as a true sawback was never on a sharpened edge.
The next mystery is the scabbard, a brass hilt side arm of this type should have a leather scabbard with brass fittings. But the steel scabbard seems to match the blade and has a look or early 1900's about it.
So is it even a Fire faschinemesser? Could it be an Artillery faschinemesser? Was it modified from a M1849 by someone to make it useable as a Fire Faschinemesser?
Could it be a Musicians side arm?

I discovered that in the 1880's and 1890's Solingen blade makers exported brass handled faschinemessers to the Boers of Orange Free State for Artillery troops. So these brass hilts were still being made as late as 1890's. (See photo). And one photo of a German Imperial soldier in 1914 wearing what looks like a brass handled faschinemesser. At that date it was long out of date.