Thanks, it will be interesting to see what he says. I'm curious why you think that the pattern on the shank is a poppy, specifically, rather than just a stylised flower motif.
I have other rings with flower patterns on the shank. This one, for example, might be a rose.
by ajax3985
O.k, the maker mark is not obvious but this is not unusual and they can be hard to track down. I found a couple similar marks under British companies but its not exact so not worth talking about at this time.
The eagle is an Adolf Hitler pattern eagle utilized on his silverware and silver items related to him. These are faked and I can neither find nor think of any reason why that eagle would be found on a ring, but it is found on a multitude of spurious pieces. Even if it was done, who would even have it?. And naturally comparisons of Hitler silverware in its original form is available for comparison and the eagle that is applied to this ring is without a doubt newly manufactured through casting, its fake and very easy to do for even an average artisan through a couple methods. The casting of the back plate which is also unfinished shows traces of filing on the exterior borders and in the recess areas. It has been affixed to the band with solder leaving solder residue to the sides of the ring where it meets the band. So you have a newly cast Hitler political eagle attached to a back plate that was fitted for the eagle.
The band design to me appears to be middle eastern but does not have to be but I believe the flower is a stylized poppy. But even if its not a poppy the amount of engraving and the style lends no real sign that would give one the impression it is Germanic. In addition the use of a Hitler style eagle would mean prestige, but copied off his silverware? not likely. But if it were the ring would never pass muster for the recipient whoever that would have been.
I sent the ring photos and the photos of the cutout to Ed and Caroline Sunday with a request to look at the cutout and the ring as well as the maker mark. For those who do not know Ed and his wife their expertise in antique jewelry and Ed's expertise in both 3rd Reich edged weapons and Jewelry process of manufacture is well known to many advanced collectors. The cutout is hard to say but if you wanted to hide evidence of a signet or initials you can obliterate them or cut them out. The maker mark as I suggested is a problem and they are very hard to track down. The consensus is that the band is in fact modern and that the cast design is most probably non-German. The consensus on the Reich Adler is that it is newly cast and applied through the means of the back plate.
Now I realize that there are guys here who talk about armchair experts, and self proclaimed experts, etc. Sure, I understand that and I have to deal with that as well in many cases. The situation is getting worse as more fakes are loaded out into the market and guys looking for a consensus on a piece cannot find one because no one can agree. In addition to that we have reached a point where many old timers are coming out with pieces that no one has seen in 30-50 years and setting up at shows and sending items to auction that were made post war but never observed. So while the forums are often abuzz with arguments and opinions what is going on behind the scenes via phone and e-mail as the networks of collectors try and navigate auction catalogs and dealer offerings never hit the forums.
I am not a ring expert, if you run my profile you will not see me commenting on rings often, if at all. The reason for that is because I do not know them well enough and prefer not to comment on something if I simply do not know the answer. Here we have a different equation and a ring that I have every reason to believe is modern and a fake, not due to ring knowledge but due to the construction, accents, use of the eagle, casting, and knowing and seeing this done on pieces other than rings themselves.
So, I cannot pin down the maker mark and I am not surprised but I tried anyway. I sent the photos out to confirm my suspicions with the only people I know that specialize in both 3rd Reich and antique jewelry and who are well known for that expertise if not by many, by those that know just how knowledgeable they are. The suspicions are confirmed and while that may not satisfy the forum participants is certainly satisfies me as it was obvious from the beginning.
I am surprised that Gaspare chose not to participate in this, and that Odal took a back seat to a certain degree in his opinions, but Gaspare does not like to hurt peoples feelings and he may very well be busy, without Gaspare Odal might be reluctant to comment.
So? Yesterday it was Hitler eagles on silver items of various degree, today it is a Hitler eagle on a ring. Problem is it does not work based on the piece nor would it make much sense from the question of who would have this?. If you should feel the need to inquire to the reputations of the Sunday's, have at it as it is sterling ( no pun intended ) and they are without question two of the most knowledgeable people on the subject.
The open back design is, actually, a period style of ring. I have seen many of this style with various designs on them and, in fact, actually have a "Legionnaire" type of ring with this type of manufacturing. These rings had blank tables on them and could, therefore, be adapted to anything the owner desired. This is exactly how they were intended to be sold. They could be engraved, stones mounted or any particular emblem affixed to the top-depending on the owner's wishes. The ring, itself, does appear to be of period manufacturing style and materials. I am also not familiar with the maker's mark, but this doesn't mean much, of course. The German empire was enormous and anywhere in it, this ring could have originated. The German Eagle? That's the sticky spot. It does, of course, appear to have been copied from the Hitler formal pattern. An easy enough task for any competent (or semi-competent) silver smith. Why would any German official want this? For pretty much the same reasons that apply today-to brag and show off that they were in Hitler's inner circle-or simply that they had once Met him, I would imagine? Or was it a period ring that a faker decided to "convert" to something more exotic/valuable? Just When this was applied and by who, is the next to impossible bit to prove.
It's these custom made and one of a kind pieces that are the most frustrating to ascribe to any one particular date and location. The faker's, naturally enough, are well aware of this as well and use it to the fullest advantage-much to the consternation of collector's Worldwide. Every year, the thieves get better and better at such things-and not just rings, but high end items like RK's and low end stuff like Mother's Crosses. I, personally, like this ring. Unfortunately, I don't possess a time machine and am unable to follow it back through time to see exactly just where and when it came from. The workmanship on it is good solid work. Not every item produced in the TR era was of Tiffany's quality,keep in mind. Germans could and did produce a Lot of drek as well as high quality pieces. Not every silver worker in the German empire was an immigrant from Park Avenue or High Street. So, what do we have here in the end? "Could" "Probably" "Might have" etc etc. Is there anything 100% indisputable or exact? Again, unfortunately,no. "Buy the item-not the story"....but sometimes, it comes down to just that. If you believe and feel comfortable with something-then that's all that needs saying.
William
"Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."
Well this is indeed a very nice post and whatelse, rings controversy back in the headlines once again, what a surprise. Interesting comments have been mentioned in here and as such they are different viewpoints. This is at the end of the day a Fórum where everybody can express freely their views, following some rules of conduct of course.
I am not going to give my opinión about the ring posted from a technical point of view since I openly declare my self an amateur in this área.
Having said that I take very very seriously Williams and Odals comments in this matter, they are as far as I am concerned real experts in this very difficult área. In fact both of them normally agree on what is a good ring and what is not and they both were very happy to show in post 1 without hesitating that this ring has no issues.
I am not scared to collect rings, just the opossite I find it a very cool área. Following the right advise it s very difficult to get a dub. So far I have bought two rings, no maker marks, no proof of origin, just a ring. These two rings I am posting are not a piece of art, just common rings.
Last but not least, if I had to follow my instinct of the ring posted, I would have no problem what so ever to add it in my collection, Regards, Juan
I sent this thread out to Gaspare this morning and wondered why he had not responded. Apparemtly he is not as active as he used to be but did manage to finish his book on private purchase rings it would seem. But his reply is as follows for the record anyway:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I am a member but haven't posted in a long while. Don't remember my user or password. Good forum but have medical issues etc. and hopefully will be back on soon and posting.
This ring. It is of course a fantasy piece. In all 3rd reich collecting you have to be a bit of detective. And, you have some good ones there.
A great idea! Use the eagle off a AH pattern formal piece of silverware! Good try but poorly done. Flat, lacking detail, soft.
The ring made up of cast pieces..A band , stamped up and all soldered up neatly.
The band the same. Absolutely from wax. Mushy, unclear in design. Any competent jeweler after inspecting the ring will come to the same conclusions..
The overall style is wrong, everything about it wrong. No one during the period would purchase such a ring. As a presentation piece?? Forget it.. The presenter would either get a bullet or a stay at Dachau."
Nonsense
William
"Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."
"Pleeze komm viss me Herr Griffith......"
'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'
In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.
Outstanding Ned, being laughing for a while, top
It had to be done.
'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'
In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.
Hey..the Name is spelled right,at least...lol
William
"Much that once was, is lost. For none now live who remember it."
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