A few more skull rings

[Glenn66]

if you'd rather not then I can fully understand.

Hi Ned,

Of course I would rather, there is nothing to hide. Open debate is healthy. It is true that I have done business with Maxim many times in regard to ground dug items over the years. As always, each item is judged on its merits, compared with known examples and if need be, discussed with other experienced collectors prior to purchase. It is also a fact that I have purchased a total of 5 rings from Maxim in my time on this forum and I am very happy with them.

Recent controversy regarding some rings offered by Maxim stems from genuine concern over authenticity of a handful of examples only. I think it safe to say that cast rings are viewed with great suspicion by ring collectors especially when they pertain to be of TR/WW2 era manufacture. That is a more or less cardinal rule for a ring collecting newbie to adhere to. Naturally there are many finer nuances to the genre but for the average joe-schmoe, the cast/die stamped hurdle is the first to be cleared when attempting to determine authenticity. So for me (and others as I have found through various PMs over time) if it is cast or shows even a hint of casting, better to walk away.

To my eyes, the above mentioned 'gold' rings show evidence of casting bubbles. If offered to me, (which they were) I would have politely declined (which I did). To see them posted now more clearly certainly gets my old spidey senses tingling. It has been often bandied about by ring collectors far more experienced than myself that more than 90% of rings on the market are fake. Does that mean 90% of Maxim's rings are fake? Certainly not but regardless, each piece must be judged on its merits despite the good name of the seller.

As time permits I will post threads dedicated to the rings I have purchased from Maxim and I trust they will be met with appropriate debate and hopefully, acceptance. I wish to think that any questionable ring is being sold in good faith and if any are considered to be iffy, that it is in fact Maxim himself who is perhaps the victim of one within the circle of Russian diggers trying to pass off cast fakes as genuine through Maxim's good name.

[big ned]

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for an honest and concise reply. Being circumspect of many items we come across in this hobby is only right, and as I know myself, the best way to approach ALL prospective purchases whatever the circumstances and contacts that they have been found in, and acquired from. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out, and if Maxim is selling his own groups finds or those also "recovered" by other "anonymous" parties as you seem to think may be possible. For me the whole battlefield recovery "industry", for that in my opinion is what it has become, leaves me a little uneasy. It's easy to see how bogus items are now being peddled under the premise of recovering the missing of the (mainly) eastern battlefields.

Don't get me wrong, the finding, repatriation and burials of these missing is a noble cause, but at the same time the recovery of weapons, equipment and personal items has increasingly become an extremely lucrative part of this procedure which undoubtedly enriches not all, but certain individuals/parties involved both in the field and in some cases in the authorities who are sometimes involved in allowing this endeavour to be pursued. To think otherwise is in my opinion, naive.

Obviously the process is portrayed as being done by altruistic volunteers, and undoubtedly many involved are, but I personally think this line is becoming increasingly blurred when I see battlefield finds being offered for sale at prices that have risen rapidly in the last few years and diggers perceived and accepted as "honest" being forced to dig in the hours of darkness of both Russian winters and summers nights for reasons that have never really been addressed, yet are lauded weekly on this forum without question. That causes me concern.

I'm not trying to start a witch hunt here, but having seen the excavation and removal of bones and artefacts on various forums and Youtube by recovery groups like Legenda and the like, the fact that they never seem to record and publish the results of their excavations as a matter of routine and ethics is of concern to me and others I've spoken with on this matter. A lot of the details are not recorded and as such the opportunities for people to take advantage of this to enrich themselves cannot be ignored, although at the same time not proven. This is the main reason for my unease about the whole business of collecting and owning such ground dug items, whatever the circumstances of their recovery may be.

I shall now take cover.

Regards, Ned.

[rbminis]

To my knowledge, I own nothing that is ground dug for these very reasons. They could have very well come from some of the unknown graves of my family members.
Ralph.

[Glenn66]

No need to take cover Ned, you have fair and reasonable concerns, concerns which are shared by more than a few collectors I can assure you. One need only peruse the rise of FB groups dedicated to battlefield recoveries and rings in particular to get the odd sensation that groups of diggers are sharing 'finds' and information in the public sphere that may not be all that they seem.

For instance, 'finds' that only ever seem to arise in the former Eastern bloc are curious aren't they? Despite the cries of mutual self support amongst various diggers, one can't help but wonder sometimes "is it all that it seems"?

[big ned]

One need only peruse the rise of FB groups dedicated to battlefield recoveries and rings in particular to get the odd sensation that groups of diggers are sharing 'finds' and information in the public sphere that may not be all that they seem.

When it comes down to a matter of supply versus demand, and the demand of collectors is getting more voracious every day, then the case for genuine items being replaced or supplemented by bogus ones for increased financial gain is elementary really. Of course it happens.

Regards, Ned.

[odal]

I think 'gold' rings show gas porosity from casting. What do you think Goetz?

What I think?
Hard/impossible to spot on a plated ring wether gas porosity or corrosion.
But a period german industrial gold plating on such ring...no way...and this rings are mass produced.
Dug in this condition? A brass ring? My good....completely impossible

And for example...here a comparison between one of these gold plated rings and a mint sure period one....
sorry for the real not so good pics and the about 80 year old dirt in the backsite,
but i think a lot of differences are visible.

And so, sorry for the owner, for me this gold plated one for me is for sure no german made period ring.

What maybe could be is an hard worn, corroded ring restaurated and later gold plated,.

[odal]

And sorry
My nearly 40 years old shool english isn`t good enaugh to take part in this interesting debate

[Eike41]

Well that was certainly more insight than I expected. Just to be clear, the consensus is the 2 gold rings are modern casts correct?

Sorry I brought up so many moral and economic discussions, I just intended to show off my items. Many interesting points of view.

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And I wanted to add thank you all for your thoughtful comments.

[Glenn66]

Not necessarily cast fakes, Odal raises the valid point that they could be ground dug restored originals with a fresh replating. A much better outcome (if true) than being outright fakes

[Wagriff]

I, too, would be inclined to the restored with fresh replating theory. And, actually, I would see no problems if this were, indeed, so.