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Definitive Thread M35 Gymnasterka Pockets

Article about: I see nothing inconsistent with the lend lease M-35 (construction) and 43 (materials) in the virtual museums posted on other respected dealer websites. This is a "one off" item fou

  1. #41
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    I see nothing inconsistent with the lend lease M-35 (construction) and 43 (materials) in the virtual museums posted on other respected dealer websites. This is a "one off" item found in a Soviet museum almost 20 years ago with other original items so it is not from a horde of fakes. It was not found or sold with an intent to deceive. Plus it was dirt cheap and acquired when Soviet stuff was rarely available on western markets. It was in a museum (with the wraps) and we all know what happened in those museums.

    The basic question is: Is the gym pre or post 1947? Based on every criteria on every website and forum I have read, all objective criteria points to pre-1947. The internal pockets are a wrinkle, but there is ample evidence that transitional forms of M35 and 43 gyms exist.

    Based on my observations this gym is pre-1947. I backed up my claim with pictures per request.

    If the counter argument is: “This gym is unlike any other I have ever seen so it must be fake!”, then there is no further point of discussing this matter. We all know that odd variations exits on all phases of this hobby.

    Specific Counterpoints:
    This gym looks like the M43 (ru498) with a M35 collar like (ru437 and 427) on Espenlaub. The collar is originally sewn to the body.

    Rebuilt M43: I can see no evidence that it has been fashioned from spare parts. It is clearly factory sewn out WW2 period materials. The item shows consistent age through out. I see no evidence of shoulders holes for pogonies or evidence of restitched seams. Reconstructed M43 would take entirely new front and back panels which in this line of reasoning would make the gym a "ground up fake". Once again, if this is true then every lend lease M43 should be re-examined in light of this new discovery. I find it hard to understand why a theater would take the effort to replicate a factory gym with lend lease material.

    I suppose this could from a theater, but the gym looks factory made and exhibits no characteristics of private tailoring (tailoring, construction, technique and stitchcount). The buttons are wartime but replaced. The lack of zig-zag stitching on back collar is not indicator of pre or post 1947 construction (ru27). Patch pockets most likely added post-war, but does not take away from the characteristics of the base gym. By the standards of this forum the lack of internal document pocket dates gym most likely before 1947. War time lend lease material helps validate this claim.

    Question: Can anyone show a post 1947 gym with lend lease material with internal document pocket?

    BTW it came with trousers.

    Thank you for the discussion.

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  3. #42

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    Excellent post and all points are worth considering/debating.

    If I understand correctly, you believe that this is Lend-Lease fabric?
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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    .

    Fellow collectors are NOT adversaries to be bested...

    ☭ "Ричик, я не понимаю, почему, почему ты тратишь деньги на эти вещи!" ☭

  4. #43

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    Quote by NATJER View Post

    I see no evidence of shoulders holes for pogonies
    I have seen and own quite a few M43 types that do not have holes to accommodate shoulder-boards.
    .

    Fellow collectors are NOT adversaries to be bested...

    ☭ "Ричик, я не понимаю, почему, почему ты тратишь деньги на эти вещи!" ☭

  5. #44

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    Quote by NATJER View Post


    If the counter argument is: “This gym is unlike any other I have ever seen so it must be fake!”, then there is no further point of discussing this matter. We all know that odd variations exits on all phases of this hobby.
    As far as I am concerned, that is absolutely not the case. I have owned and own quite a few pieces, and not only cloth items, that have been deemed "fake", "fantasy", "copy", "bad quality copy", "fuflo", "novodel", "tufta" & etc. by colleagues both here in the west and in the Russian collector's circles - all because they did not conform to "regulation", were an extremely odd variant compared to the norm, and/or something just never seen before.
    .

    Fellow collectors are NOT adversaries to be bested...

    ☭ "Ричик, я не понимаю, почему, почему ты тратишь деньги на эти вещи!" ☭

  6. #45
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    Roger and concur here too. My comments were about the subject gym only and not the overall necessity of debunking militaria myths.

  7. #46

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    Quote by RichieC View Post
    Excellent post and all points are worth considering/debating.

    If I understand correctly, you believe that this is Lend-Lease fabric?
    Not sure if that is what NATJER believes, but clearly it is not. It is made of a common Soviet heavy cotton weave that is typically used for cotton trousers, wartime and long into the post war era. It is also used on the 50's era Construction troops shirts, at least every one I have ever seen. So I'm with Bruno on this one... My opinion is that this Gym is a post 1947 Construction/Technical troop shirt that has had patch pockets added over the internals. The material and three button exposed front are consistent with this. Another detail I think is a clue here is the short length of the skirt. I cannot document this, but this "M35 looking" fatigue shirt worn by construction and technical troops that I have actually handled were cut shorter than a true Gym. Possibly they were meant to be tucked into the trouser waist and not worn outside.

    I will grant you the museum source information, but they might have done it to fill a hole in a collection or received it from a film company.

    I am also of the opinion that the internal pocket version from the Webster book that has been shown in this thread is not what it seems either. Again, my opinion... The piping is poorly done and to my eyes this blouse appears to have been disassembled, piped, and put back together. All we have is the one photo however.

  8. #47
    Dom
    Dom is offline
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    VOKhR (BOXP) - Militarized guards of industrial installations, labor camps, prisons, state railways, communications ...

    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #48

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    Quote by Dom View Post
    VOKhR (BOXP) - Militarized guards of industrial installations, labor camps, prisons, state railways, communications ...

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Boxp.jpg 
Views:	122 
Size:	100.5 KB 
ID:	608498
    Dom, what is the era of the photo? Based on his haircut, I have my guesses.

  10. #49
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    I have several pre- war gimnastrkas, even a early m19 budionovkas, the made from a US wool, but definitely this material has been send to the Russia in 1917-18 year by Antanta, or even in WW 1. There no other possibilities
    Regards,
    Dimas

    my Skype: warrelics

  11. #50
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    Quote by bourguignotte View Post
    Hello Natjer,

    Would you have photos of these Gym?

    That would greatly help assess what we are talking about.
    The logic is that we have m35, some of them transitioned to M43 by additng pogonies and, in some occasions got their colar changed and then M43. Therfore they still kept their scare Pocket as shown on the http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/unifor...1/#post1049193 thread.

    Does this look like this?
    Attachment 606569
    (Webster)

    Or this?
    Attachment 606570

    Best regards

    Bruno
    The last gym is a tropical M 35
    Regards,
    Dimas

    my Skype: warrelics

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