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BD blouse to a major in 2nd Royal Fusiliers, 56th London Division

Article about: by Loupie1961 Thank you Rob, I really appreciate your efforts... sooner or later this mistery is going to be solved: I am persuaded this bloused has not been forged, just because the insigni

  1. #11

    Default Re: BD blouse to a major in 2nd Royal Fusiliers, 56th London Division

    Quote by Loupie1961 View Post
    Thank you Rob, I really appreciate your efforts... sooner or later this mistery is going to be solved: I am persuaded this bloused has not been forged, just because the insignia on it by all means apparently should not be there.... still I have been told, but I do not own it, that it si the RF Regimental history that maintains that the 9th Bn had a divided blue/red square as insignia....
    You are more than welcome, I enjoy this kind of thing, especially where it involves insignia like this. I don't think the blouse is faked (although it is better to see it in person, I don't get a bad vibe from it) and in any case, I think if you were going to fake a jacket like this, you would make up insignia that would fit the information in the available texts.

    As you have started me off, I will go at the artillery angle now. Here is one interesting picture I did find online, which may relate to this:

    Name:  MarstonEllisWalter.jpg
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    This is a picture of 11426817 Fusilier Walter Ellis, who was killed on 26th Dec 1944. He is listed as being in 8th Bn Royal Fusiliers, although from the hat he has on in the picture (and his regimental number) he was clearly a member of the Royal Artillery prior to this. I am fairly sure this man must have transferred with Crowe, which would suggest that multiple men came into 8/R Fus from the RA. Notice he is wearing an RA regimental patch beneath the artillery AoS strip - which is a square. Is this the red/blue square that has been attributed to 8th Bn? Perhaps it was a badge worn by ex-RA men from whatever regt they came from? Were the 8th and 9th patches actually former battery badges misidentified? A red/blue square badge suggests artillery (as shown in my avatar) to me. If we can identify the RA unit it might shed some light on this. Food for thought anyway...

    Rob
    Last edited by Battery Command Post; 11-25-2011 at 01:07 AM.

  2. #12

    Default Re: BD blouse to a major in 2nd Royal Fusiliers, 56th London Division

    Quote by Battery Command Post View Post
    You are more than welcome, I enjoy this kind of thing, especially where it involves insignia like this. I don't think the blouse is faked (although it is better to see it in person, I don't get a bad vibe from it) and in any case, I think if you were going to fake a jacket like this, you would make up insignia that would fit the information in the available texts.

    As you have started me off, I will go at the artillery angle now. Here is one interesting picture I did find online, which may relate to this:

    Name:  MarstonEllisWalter.jpg
Views: 690
Size:  20.8 KB

    This is a picture of 11426817 Fusilier Walter Ellis, who was killed on 26th Dec 1944. He is listed as being in 8th Bn Royal Fusiliers, although from the hat he has on in the picture (and his regimental number) he was clearly a member of the Royal Artillery prior to this. I am fairly sure this man must have transferred with Crowe, which would suggest that multiple men came into 8/R Fus from the RA. Notice he is wearing an RA regimental patch beneath the artillery AoS strip - which is a square. Is this the red/blue square that has been attributed to 8th Bn? Perhaps it was a badge worn by ex-RA men from whatever regt they came from? Were the 8th and 9th patches actually former battery badges misidentified? A red/blue square badge suggests artillery (as shown in my avatar) to me. If we can identify the RA unit it might shed some light on this. Food for thought anyway...

    Rob
    Hello Rob, very fascinating, as a theory, but alas there is further evidence that the 8 Bn RF had a divided rectangle as its flash. This is what I have found on another collectors forum: it's is a page from notes made around 1944 by a soldier who had probably served in 206 Indep Inf Bde and 56 Inf Div. As you can see, the 8th and 9th Bn RF insignia are represented as divided rectangles, red over blue....
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	269595  

  3. #13

    Default Re: BD blouse to a major in 2nd Royal Fusiliers, 56th London Division

    Quote by Loupie1961 View Post
    Hello Rob, very fascinating, as a theory, but alas there is further evidence that the 8 Bn RF had a divided rectangle as its flash. This is what I have found on another collectors forum: it's is a page from notes made around 1944 by a soldier who had probably served in 206 Indep Inf Bde and 56 Inf Div. As you can see, the 8th and 9th Bn RF insignia are represented as divided rectangles, red over blue....
    That's a very interesting document

    From the units listed compared to the 56th Div orbat, I would date it somewhere between Feb 1942 and about April 1943 (90th Field Regt RA left about this time). I suspect that it dates from the period they were still in the UK, which would explain the association with 206th Ind Inf Bde (Home). It is therefore earlier than your BD blouse, and we have to bear in mind it predates it by 2 years or so. It definitely associates 8th and 9th Bns with red/blue badges though, although I'm not sure if these are supposed to represent cloth patches or painted/decal helmet flashes. The 8th and 9th badges actually contradict the list you were originally given (by Mike Jackson on the Brit & Commonwealth Mil Badge Forum), as they are in reverse and differ in shape, which makes this study even more confusing.

    Two of them are definitely known in cloth: the London Scottish thistle and the lightning blitz of 67th AT Regt RA (albeit in yellow on a red/blue rectangle) are listed as cloth patches. Just for the record, I have found four red/blue cloth patches associated with R Fus, but not all fully identified:

    Red left, blue right (vertical split) diamond - unknown Bn
    Blue left, red right (diagonal split) rectangle - 13th Bn
    Blue left, red right (diagonal split) square - unknown Bn
    Blue left, red right (vertical split) square - unknown Bn

    So we can say that red/blue badges were definitely associated with 8th and 9th R Fus from their early days, and itís nothing to do with any artillery reinforcement. So now what we really need is some contemporary information from 1944-45 to identify/authenticate the badging on your blouse.

    Rob

  4. #14

    Default Re: BD blouse to a major in 2nd Royal Fusiliers, 56th London Division

    a new find in order to restart this old thread: supposedly having been part of a collection put together during the war, I have recently purchased this 56 London Division combined formation insignia has been listed as an epaulette slip on badged to the 9th battalion RF. Now, what could be the eventual RA origin of the red grenade? Thank you in advance for your help and knowledge!
    Click to enlarge the picture Click to enlarge the picture Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	320444   Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	320445  

    Click image for larger version. 

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  5. #15

    Default Re: BD blouse to a major in 2nd Royal Fusiliers, 56th London Division

    Quote by Battery Command Post View Post
    That's a very interesting document

    From the units listed compared to the 56th Div orbat, I would date it somewhere between Feb 1942 and about April 1943 (90th Field Regt RA left about this time). I suspect that it dates from the period they were still in the UK, which would explain the association with 206th Ind Inf Bde (Home). It is therefore earlier than your BD blouse, and we have to bear in mind it predates it by 2 years or so. It definitely associates 8th and 9th Bns with red/blue badges though, although I'm not sure if these are supposed to represent cloth patches or painted/decal helmet flashes. The 8th and 9th badges actually contradict the list you were originally given (by Mike Jackson on the Brit & Commonwealth Mil Badge Forum), as they are in reverse and differ in shape, which makes this study even more confusing.

    Two of them are definitely known in cloth: the London Scottish thistle and the lightning blitz of 67th AT Regt RA (albeit in yellow on a red/blue rectangle) are listed as cloth patches. Just for the record, I have found four red/blue cloth patches associated with R Fus, but not all fully identified:

    Red left, blue right (vertical split) diamond - unknown Bn
    Blue left, red right (diagonal split) rectangle - 13th Bn
    Blue left, red right (diagonal split) square - unknown Bn
    Blue left, red right (vertical split) square - unknown Bn

    So we can say that red/blue badges were definitely associated with 8th and 9th R Fus from their early days, and itís nothing to do with any artillery reinforcement. So now what we really need is some contemporary information from 1944-45 to identify/authenticate the badging on your blouse.

    Rob
    Hello Rob: what about the chance that the red flaming grenade could be the insignia of the 100 LAA Artillery Rgt?

  6. #16

    Default Re: BD blouse to a major in 2nd Royal Fusiliers, 56th London Division

    Hello

    Sorry i didn't reply to your first post. That looks like a really nice strap. Classic 'aertex' material, i know (have actually) the exact pattern of shirt it was designed for

    The insignia on it, however, is just as confusing as the BD. I would say the possibility of the grenade being 100th LAA Regt is fairly high (they were converted from 18th R Fus in Dec 1941, so it makes sense), but then again, taking the BD badges into account, it could be 8th or 9th R Fus just as easily. 100th LAA Regt left 56th Div in November 1944 and came under direct command of Allied Forces HQ Italy before being disbanded in January 1945.

    I have found a reference that tends to confirm it on another forum "100 LAA Regt RA (ex-18 RF) wore a red felt grenade", which is actually discussing the same insignia drawing you posted. However, this contradicts the list you quoted earlier as it gives 18 R Fus a maroon grenade for a badge

    Someone believed it to be 9th RF, judging by the card it's glued to, is there any story with the strap?

    You definitely have a skill for finding items that create great discussions though

    Rob

  7. #17

    Default Re: BD blouse to a major in 2nd Royal Fusiliers, 56th London Division

    I can't add to the discussion on the finer points of the insignia, but that is a great BD and the strap is a wonderful example.
    Regards,

    Jerry

    Whatever its just an opinion.

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