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Verwundetenabzeichen Black with Envelope - real of fake?

Article about: Hi Guys, I was offered this BWB and given 3 crappy cell phone photos to review. Could those of you with much better eyes than mine make a determination of authenticity of this badge based on

  1. #11

    Default

    I thought I'd seen the packet before......














    Craftily ignoring what I said in my previous post....
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

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  3. #12

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    Here is my Rust & Hetzel set for comparison. Seems to be a match.

    /Jonas

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  4. #13

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    So, now the tide seems to have shifted a bit. I thank all of you for your comments but I am still a bit confused as to real or not. Sure looks a lot like the one Jonas has. Any other Rust & Hetzel samples out there? Thanks, Bob

  5. #14

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    Quote by Combat Boots View Post
    So, now the tide seems to have shifted a bit. I thank all of you for your comments but I am still a bit confused as to real or not. Sure looks a lot like the one Jonas has. Any other Rust & Hetzel samples out there? Thanks, Bob
    They are considered uncommon having only been "discovered" when the first marked packet turned up around 8-9 years ago. The maker only produced black wound badges. For what it's worth, I thought it was written off here too soon, and I personally think this one is good.

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  6. #15
    ?

    Default

    It seems to be a common misconception that these things have to have a crisp, clean strike to be considered authentic. Not always so. A good look around will uncover many an authentic example with a less than perfect worn die / dirty strike. The rear rivet is present on the OP's badge & will be seen on the photo of the reverse. I am inclined to agree with Ned.

    Regards
    Brett
    "I wish life could be Swedish magazines" Iggy Pop, 1979

  7. #16
    ?

    Default

    Ned has been blessed by the Badge and medal Gods. I wish I had his knowledge.

  8. #17

    Default

    Quote by big ned View Post
    They are considered uncommon having only been "discovered" when the first marked packet turned up around 8-9 years ago. The maker only produced black wound badges. For what it's worth, I thought it was written off here too soon, and I personally think this one is good.

    Regards, Ned.
    Always happy to learn in this game it's a huge part of the hobby! I have to say though that this is the only place I have heard any mention of this maker of the VWA.

    I do know from a general interest in antiques that Rust and Hertzel were a Vienna firm of Silversmiths (metalworkers / platers) that traded for around 70 yrs from the beginning of the 20th century. I have not heard of them being involved in any TR badge production. Of course that doesn't mean they weren't. That this was only "discovered" by the appearance of marked bags a few years ago still leaves me with the question "why was this maker unknown for so long?" especially being the kind of company it was and the marking of packaging in this way. Perhaps this was unlicensed production?

    If anyone can provide information other than the anecdotal on this company and their TR production I would be most grateful.

    Either this is quite a special badge for a wound badge specialist or........?

    To be honest, given the content this thread, as long as it did not come at a premium price I think I might take it "on spec" as it wouldn't be a great loss and would still have interest in its own right as an example if it turned out to be wrong. If that makes sense

    Regards

    Mark
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

  9. #18

    Default

    Quote by Watchdog View Post
    Always happy to learn in this game it's a huge part of the hobby! I have to say though that this is the only place I have heard any mention of this maker of the VWA.

    I do know from a general interest in antiques that Rust and Hertzel were a Vienna firm of Silversmiths (metalworkers / platers) that traded for around 70 yrs from the beginning of the 20th century. I have not heard of them being involved in any TR badge production. Of course that doesn't mean they weren't. That this was only "discovered" by the appearance of marked bags a few years ago still leaves me with the question "why was this maker unknown for so long?" especially being the kind of company it was and the marking of packaging in this way. Perhaps this was unlicensed production?

    If anyone can provide information other than the anecdotal on this company and their TR production I would be most grateful.

    Either this is quite a special badge for a wound badge specialist or........?

    To be honest, given the content this thread, as long as it did not come at a premium price I think I might take it "on spec" as it wouldn't be a great loss and would still have interest in its own right as an example if it turned out to be wrong. If that makes sense

    Regards

    Mark
    Hi Mark,

    The maker of the previously unknown producer of the so called "Flat back PAB" was only discovered to have been the firm of Alois Rettenmaier a couple of years ago when a find of various TR badges from a small wartime LDO accredited shop near the Austrian border that contained the invoice list with it from that maker, and badges already known to be made by them.

    I'm betting that the above wound badge has been around for years, and was only linked to Rust & Hertzel when some badges came to light complete with the packets. In the past this has been the case when horde finds have come to light after lying undiscovered in lofts, attics and basements for decades.

    Another case in point was the so called "Prototype" PAB that appeared fairly recently. I got one of the early ones that was an unfinished badge, having never had the hardware fitted and indicating it was perhaps picked up by a GI during the war as it originallly came from the estate of a retired cop in small town near Baltimore, Maryland where a large VA hospital and community living facility was located. At the time only a handful of badges were known to exist, and the design was unique. Here's my thread about it back then:

    .....And Then There Were Six.

    The "Prototype" PAB was eventually linked to the maker Deschler & Sohne, a famous firm that was previously not known to be a maker of Panzerkampfabzeichen badges, by the unique lozenge shaped catch plate used only by them being found on some badges, or in some cases, the solder "footprint" of the same when the catch had been lost was taken as a positive link to that maker.

    Here's an example of that:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    So, it's in these small discoveries that a badge or award can be linked to a certain maker. Of course it may not be that simple, and other makers may have used the same design, but when several appear with the same marked packaging or hardware that is accredited to a certain maker, then that is taken as at least a "probable" conclusion.

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  10. #19

    Default

    Well, this has been a VERY informative thread so far. When the badge arrives, I will post more detailed and close up photos of the hinge, pin and catch, as well as the makers mark stamp on the envelope. Thanks to everyone for their input! Bob

  11. #20

    Default

    Hello,

    Today I received the Rust & Hetzel badge and it is a excellent example.
    I paid $65.00 which included shipping. Shown below are the detail photos.

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    I wish the makers mark was not so blurred on the back of the envelope.

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    It appears to me that in assembly the still soft paint may have stuck to the flat
    bottom of the pin and pulled away from the back of the badge. Or maybe it just chipped off.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    In the photo below, the rear helmet rivet is visible.

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