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Paramilitary * 2

Article about: Angolia lists it as unidentified. However, very interesting that the buckle he has shown belongs/belonged to Marc V and is identical to the pebbled buckle shown on this thread. I don't mean

  1. #11

    Default Re: Paramilitary * 2

    Angolia lists it as unidentified. However, very interesting that the buckle he has shown belongs/belonged to Marc V and is identical to the pebbled buckle shown on this thread. I don't mean it looks the same but identical-it is the same buckle. Not that it makes any difference-bad is bad, but Marc owned this buckle for some years. So is it fantasy?

    Bill

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  3. #12
    ?

    Default Re: Paramilitary * 2

    Quote by Buckle1 View Post
    Angolia lists it as unidentified. However, very interesting that the buckle he has shown belongs/belonged to Marc V and is identical to the pebbled buckle shown on this thread. I don't mean it looks the same but identical-it is the same buckle. Not that it makes any difference-bad is bad, but Marc owned this buckle for some years. So is it fantasy?

    Bill
    Obviously Mark V owned a fake and then passed it on to an unsuspecting collector.
    SteveR

  4. #13
    ?

    Default Re: Paramilitary * 2

    Quote by Buckle1 View Post

    ..., but Marc owned this buckle for some years. So is it fantasy?

    Bill
    Bill,
    this comment has to be handled with care! We know that the pure fact that a buckle was once in the collection of a famous collector heals quite every doubt!

    Best,
    Guido

  5. #14

    Default Re: Paramilitary * 2

    Dear Steve

    With all due respect, it is not obvious that Marc owned a fake and then passed it on. In addition, Alex is a highly advanced and certainly not, an unsuspecting collector. I do not like this buckle, although I think that it is worth discussion rather than dismissal.

    Regards,

    David

  6. #15
    ?

    Default Re: Paramilitary * 2

    Quote by David North View Post

    ... In addition and toward the latter (like the ones that Alex has shown), it has a differing style of pebbling to the roundel and is seen on most convincing, period style boxes.

    A small and potentially interesting point?

    Regards,

    David

    David,

    interesting yes, but I just would be happy if anyone could tell me where this symbol was used during the Third Reich.
    I think this is one of the keys to the puzzle.

    Best,
    Guido

  7. #16

    Default Re: Paramilitary * 2

    ...Yes. The symbol. I'm interesting in...

    and Yes, silver one belonged to Marc but Gold one it's another source ( far away from this Hobby and business )

  8. #17

    Default Re: Paramilitary * 2

    I can´t tell you Guido! Why?! Because this symbol is fantasy! If somebody creates a fantasy buckle, he first thinks, what are "interesting" symbols.
    The swastika for sure...yes, a sword...maybe a hammer, like Thors Hammer! Put them together, and you have a totally "rare" buckle, nobody had seen before!
    Somebody might know the fake buckle with the SS-skull and the motto "Frontheil". It´s like this...SS-skull+Frontheil=Thats what people want to see, so they get what they want!
    Gruß Max

  9. #18
    kc1
    kc1 is offline
    ?

    Default Re: Paramilitary * 2

    So are we happy the boxes, prongs ears etc look the part, that is made by a manufacturer of the period?
    The wreath surround appears to be standard heer. On the alloy buckle the whole symbol and wreath appear to be one unit, if you look closely there is a ring of solder around the outer edge of the symbol as well as the solder seen as two dots on the rear view. This looks a proper job with some skill being applied, you did this for a living. Could this have been a standard heer buckle with the heer device removed, if you're working in the factory where they are made not hard to do in the lunch break.
    Could these buckles have been made/procured during the TR period by say an opposition group, communist for instance, during the street battles with the S.A. The symbolism is not too far removed from the hammer and sickle, workers smashing the Nazis hammer and sword.
    Alternatively it could have been produced immediately post war for souvenir purposes, you have a factory, your customer base has suddenly dried up. you are hungry and the Red Army is camped on your doorstep, knock something up for Ivan to take home. Again same symbolism as before, interesting that the swastika is facing the wrong way, arms pointing to the left rather than right.
    The quality of construction seems to preclude instant dismissal as fantasy or fake. If you were going to fake an item you'd need to make enough of them for it to be economically worthwhile, as there doesn't appear to be many of these buckles about then it doesn't make sense. The only people who really know the answer probably aren't in a postion to tell.

  10. #19

    Default Re: Paramilitary * 2

    First of all -steve, I think your comment was way off base. I never stated that the bucjkle owned by Marc was either a fantasy or original. I agree with Dan and david that there is no correct answer on this but let me continue. Both buckles are on different boxes and both have what I would call period correct solder points. secondly-as Dan points out, how many of this type buckle has anyone seen? It is pictured in Agolia's book attrbuted to Marc so the scrcaond style shown has never been seen before. Sure we can say -does not meet any of the known 3rd Reich patterns, but if someone was to look at the DAF pebbled buckle 20 years ago even with the makkers mark there would have been some questions raised and what about the Easterrn peoples bucle with the SS runes and the wording "In True Fest"s buckle?It is still being tossed about as to it's originaity. All i am trying to get across here is that just because it does not fit a known pattern can we just dismiss it out of hand. And Steve be a little bit less harsh in any respone to my thread.

    Thanks,

    Bill

  11. #20

    Default Re: Paramilitary * 2

    Hello
    So, apart of the buckle but motif.
    again, It's the first for me to come across with such combination of symbols.
    Werner Heering / André Hüsken: "Katalog der Abzeichen deutscher Organisationen 1871 – 1945" didn't bring the light on it.
    It means, we can forget to find it ( similar ) on the tinnies.
    We can attribute these buckles ( boxes and production way ) to 20/30th, can't We ?
    Germanenorden, Thule Society, Deutschvolkischer Schutz-und Trutzbund
    all of them and many others ( smaller ones ) into them got used to use swastika( both ways ) and sword ( typical German guard ) at numerous combination.
    Hammer, could it be the symbol of creating something new ( Ideology, Nation, The Country, etc )
    All of them had thier own paramilitary units. Could it be ... ?
    - left side, short arms swastika could be found on early rumanian tinnies
    - Factory defence ?
    - RAD prototype ?
    Last edited by alexhip; 05-01-2011 at 12:14 AM.

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