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9mm LP42 Flare Gun & Schalldampfer What is This?

Article about: Hi, does someone have more information on this 9mm flare gun with "HUB schalldampfer 1944" stamped on the top of barrel, and what they were used for? I imagine the HUB is the 3 let

  1. #11

    Default Re: 9mm LP42 Flare Gun & Schalldampfer What is This?

    It could even be something simpler than what you guys think, a while back when I was out hunting with my grandad and a few of his mates one guy had this old pistol thing which had a screwed thread on the front and attached to that what I can only describe as a baked bean tin. It in no way began its life as a flare pistol. What the guy done was shove an old tennis ball into the baked bean tin, screw it onto the pistol, load a blank round and fire it as if it were a mortar. He used it for training his dogs for picking up pheasants that had been shot and had fell to the ground. Just an idea and this reminds me of it

    Thanks

    Danny

  2. #12
    ?

    Default Re: 9mm LP42 Flare Gun & Schalldampfer What is This?

    It would be wery handy for slaughtering cows and pigs etc. No need for ear protection and accurate enough and no hurry. This it not for that purpose I believe, just a though.

  3. #13

    Default Re: 9mm LP42 Flare Gun & Schalldampfer What is This?

    Hi Steve,

    Sorry if you thought i was p****d off with you last night, i was not old bean, just tired, it was after 3 in the morning.

    As for understanding American humour, i think i get it having worked in Montana and Wyoming for several months a couple of years back.

    Anyway, the flare pistol.... Having slept on it, it has come to mind that the weapon may well have been converted in field, for use in humanely killing horses. This is not as silly as it may at first sound. The Germans used many tens of thousands of horses in all different units during the war for transport etc. At times it would be inevitable that casualties would arise and need to be humanely dispatched. A silencer would be fitted to the pistol so as not to disturb/upset other horses in the vicinity. Still laughing? It is a rule of the Jockey Club here and elsewhere across the world that the weapon MUST be silenced/moderated, that makes common sense to me.

    As already pointed out here, your pistol, lacking even rudimentary sights, being single shot and difficulty in reloading quickly condemns it as being an extremely rare assassins weapon of choice...why not just moderate a P-38 or PPK?

    Probability and mundane necessity suggest that to me, anyway, the pistol was cleverly converted, probably in the field, for the dispatching of horses. It fits the bill precisely for this operation, whereas it does not, unfortunately, for your assumption.

    Regards, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

  4. #14

    Default Re: 9mm LP42 Flare Gun & Schalldampfer What is This?

    Quote by Kala View Post
    This remains me a little bit Welrod pistol, but I think there are some weak spots in this. If I interpret right from the picture, there is no ejector. No sight at all and it's single shot without magazine. If you are going to shoot a sentry or someone you have only one shot in reasonable time. You shoot the poor guy and shoot only his nose off and he screams like hell. I would think you should shoot him twise in a wery short time to ensure that he stays quiet. With this pistol I think it's not easy. You have to eject the empty cartridge with your fingers. I think it's not easy because the cartridge expands due the pressure. Then you have to reload again. If it's dark night and you are nervous you may drop the new cartridge or somethin like that. You have to change your position for loading too much, I think. I think this gun is wery quiet with right kind of ammo and I prosume it's rifled. Wery interestin piece.
    Hello Kala, These are all very good points that you make. They are all true, especially the cartridge expanding and maybe difficult to remove.

    This must be a very scarce variation, as nobody knows for sure what it was used for. I will continue the research.

    Thanks for you thoughts and input!

    Regards, Steve
    "Dr.Ruby"

  5. #15

    Default Re: 9mm LP42 Flare Gun & Schalldampfer What is This?

    Quote by Nordland/Danmark View Post
    Hi
    Found this information on internet, maby you guys can use it for somthing!!
    This is not my field, but it a very interesting thread


    The final and most common variant is the LP42. Made to save precious war materials and production effort, the LP42 is made out of stamped steel or zinc in the white. There were two manufacturers for this pistol. Schneide AG, Leipzig pistols are marked "wa" and the poorer quality C&W Meinel-Scholer of Sachsen are marked "eug." This was a simpler design that was not prone to breakage like the Heeres Model. This pistol too had brown to black bakalite grips and there will be waffenamts on the rear of the breach. There are both rifled and smooth bore barrels but it is not clear if the LP42 was also designated a "Z" pistol. As previous stated, these are more common and can be found for $100-$200. IMA has an assortment of flare gun accessories including the LP42 pistol for $170.
    Hi Thanks for posting this. I have already seen this though. I appreciate you interest and help.

    Regards, Steve

  6. #16

    Default Re: 9mm LP42 Flare Gun & Schalldampfer What is This?

    Quote by big ned View Post
    Hi Steve,

    Sorry if you thought i was p****d off with you last night, i was not old bean, just tired, it was after 3 in the morning.

    As for understanding American humour, i think i get it having worked in Montana and Wyoming for several months a couple of years back.

    Anyway, the flare pistol.... Having slept on it, it has come to mind that the weapon may well have been converted in field, for use in humanely killing horses. This is not as silly as it may at first sound. The Germans used many tens of thousands of horses in all different units during the war for transport etc. At times it would be inevitable that casualties would arise and need to be humanely dispatched. A silencer would be fitted to the pistol so as not to disturb/upset other horses in the vicinity. Still laughing? It is a rule of the Jockey Club here and elsewhere across the world that the weapon MUST be silenced/moderated, that makes common sense to me.

    As already pointed out here, your pistol, lacking even rudimentary sights, being single shot and difficulty in reloading quickly condemns it as being an extremely rare assassins weapon of choice...why not just moderate a P-38 or PPK?

    Probability and mundane necessity suggest that to me, anyway, the pistol was cleverly converted, probably in the field, for the dispatching of horses. It fits the bill precisely for this operation, whereas it does not, unfortunately, for your assumption.

    Regards, Ned.

    Hi Ned, my assumption is just that, a guess, and also a thought. I in no way was saying 100% for sure it was an "assassins" weapon. This is why I post it, to find out 100%. I do not think my pistol is the most rare flare gun in the universe. I read somewhere about this "sentry" dispatching before.

    Your theory about horse dispatching quietly makes perfect sense also to me. The Germans may have not had much humane feelings for the enemy, but I am sure they must have had more compassion for there "friends" and beasts of burden"....their horses.

    Maybe someone with come up with some concrete proof and documentation on these type of pistols and their use. Maybe a period photo would be great.

    Do you still think after looking at photos closely, that the soldiers name, division, serial of the pistol/grip and on holster were done by a collector or other person post war to maybe deceive?

    Just from the photos I have shown, I think 100% original wartime pistol & holster stampings. I do not have it in hand yet, about a week or less I will, and will provide specs, and much better photos.

    It is too bad the silencer/sound dampener "schalldampfer" device is missing. I would have paid the Federal Tax stamp for license to own a silenced weapon. The US Gov. looks at silencers similar to Class 3 SMG's and MG's, they must be specially registered with $200 tax stamp you have to get and wait to be approved etc.

    Regards, Steve
    "Dr.Ruby"

  7. #17

    Default Re: 9mm LP42 Flare Gun & Schalldampfer What is This?

    This looks like a flaregun I saw with a couple of Chicago area brothers a while back. They were known sellers of fakes to pay for their personal collection of genuine items. Marked similarly across the top of the barrel.

    Personally I highly doubt it is WWII. The only way I could see it possible is if it was a captured gun, and converted by the Anti-Nazi Underground.

    As far as it being a "Z" pistol ( Lp-42 Z ) to shoot grenades, I have one and it is nothing like this.

    But Note, I have some very crude US flareguns converted to other shells such as grenades, that I first thought were fake, and then found them listed in a US Military manual. So it is possible that the Germans in some remote area far from the German factories converted this out of necessity. This is NOT a statement of authenticity.

    I wrote all the above without considering the idea that it could be a converted flaregun for humane cattle or horse killing. This makes much more sense to me if the gun is WWII or shortly after. I actually own and have owned a good number of these cattle killers including ones converted from flare guns ( Webleys mostly ). Although the muzzle ends on some of them show similarities to this gun, none to my knowledge used a silencer.

  8. #18
    ?

    Default Re: 9mm LP42 Flare Gun & Schalldampfer What is This?

    I think horse dispatching is very good explanation. But maybe warhorses are used to loud noises. Gunshots, artillery fire and explosions. If a horse brokes a leg or something, maybe silenced gun is not in hand and is it really nessecery in war conditions. I think it's easier and quiker to use pistol or rifle to put it death. Just a though.

  9. #19

    Default Re: 9mm LP42 Flare Gun & Schalldampfer What is This?

    Quote by signalman View Post
    This looks like a flaregun I saw with a couple of Chicago area brothers a while back. They were known sellers of fakes to pay for their personal collection of genuine items. Marked similarly across the top of the barrel.

    Personally I highly doubt it is WWII. The only way I could see it possible is if it was a captured gun, and converted by the Anti-Nazi Underground.

    As far as it being a "Z" pistol ( Lp-42 Z ) to shoot grenades, I have one and it is nothing like this.

    But Note, I have some very crude US flareguns converted to other shells such as grenades, that I first thought were fake, and then found them listed in a US Military manual. So it is possible that the Germans in some remote area far from the German factories converted this out of necessity. This is NOT a statement of authenticity.

    I wrote all the above without considering the idea that it could be a converted flaregun for humane cattle or horse killing. This makes much more sense to me if the gun is WWII or shortly after. I actually own and have owned a good number of these cattle killers including ones converted from flare guns ( Webleys mostly ). Although the muzzle ends on some of them show similarities to this gun, none to my knowledge used a silencer.
    Hello Signalman, all very good valid points you make.
    If it was in Chicago, it is in California now, and soon it will be in Florida.


    With everything that was said about this so far, I am not sure what to think about this flaregun.

    In my personal opinion everything looks "right" , the font of the stampings on the pistol and and holster, the age and wear patterns, it all looks to me to be an original rig pre 1945. You are correct,. this may have been made in field far from standard armories.

    But what was the intended use?

    No one has commented on the holster markings, Div., soldier name, the "GB" for Gunther Billiing on the left grip panel that was done with a hot metal stamp. All these markings on holster and pistol look to be period done.

    I wonder if Gunther was really a soldat with the VGD 257? maybe this can be found out, but this will not help with the use of the pistol.... unless he is still alive and can ask him.

    I cannot understand why someone would fake this type of pistol, there are many better choices of guns to make fakes of?? It is not a super expensive flaregun either??

    I hope this one can be figured out, someone must know more...... Maybe??

    Thanks, Best Regards, Steve
    "Dr.Ruby"

  10. #20

    Default Re: 9mm LP42 Flare Gun & Schalldampfer What is This?

    Steve, i agree that the holster and markings on it are probably original to the pistol,therefore the 'GB' initials on the grips are good too. The schalldampner stamping must therefore also be right, but i believe applied in the field with a hand stamping set, due to the irregular level of the letters.

    My guess is just that, a guess, that perhaps Herr Billing may have been part of the vetinary corps, or even a farrier or ostler, but definately familiar with horses.

    Who Neighs?, Ned.
    'I do not think we can hope for any better thing now.
    We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker of course, and the end cannot be far.
    It seems a pity, but I do not think I can write more. R. SCOTT.
    Last Entry - For God's sake look after our people.'

    In memory of Capt. Robert Falcon Scott, Edward Wilson, Henry Bowers, Lawrence Oates and Edgar Evans. South Pole Expedition, 30th March 1912.

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