Bren Mk1 & Lee Enfield No4

[HARRY THE MOLE]

Hi m3bobby,
Nice collection of Brens you have! I tried to keep my reply as simple as possible so that Lee would realise that the correct butt is on his Bren (which was originally part of my collection). I do not wish to get into protracted arguments about minor differences, but the Mk11 Bren was indeed originally manufactured by Enfield. The designers of the gun were Hance, Holton and Turpin (of Sten-gun fame). The gun was then manufactured under the Monotype scheme. The Mk1 butt was used on the Mk1 (modified) Bren until such time as stocks had run out. It is safe to assume that by 1943 the stocks had indeed run out. I suggest you read the minutes of the meeting held on the 30th July 1940 at Enfield when project A and project B were discussed. You will find reference to the simplified butt to be used on the project A (Mk1 modified) gun.

regards,

Harry.

[m3bobby]

Hi Harry, I'm familier with the meeting of 30th July 1940 and it only mentions for the Project A "This proposal was to be entitled Project A, and would be put into force at once as none of the changes affected functioning. Generally speaking, they consisted in the elimination of numerous small lightening cuts and profiling operations".

Only the Project B gun gets a mention of a modified Butt group, along the lines of the Lewis gun.

You'll also notice that many of the letters and reccomendations written by the Supt RSAF and design department were never put in effect, i.e. Using Enfield bayonet scabbards as Bipod legs and abolishing the single shot facility etc.

It was suggested that the Mk1 gun be fitted with the mk2 butt and be named the MkII*, obviously this designation never happend. I'm not saying that a Mk1 with a mk2 butt never happened as there is no proof either way. All I can say is that after inspecting thousands of Brens, the majority of Mk1s have the Mk1 butt fitted. My own late Bren BB1962 has the Mk1 butt fitted also.

This isn't me trying to instegate an argument, quite the contrary actually, a good discussion brings alot of facts to light that may not have been known previously. I've many Small arms books in my collection, the best reference books for the Bren are the Bren gun Saga and the SAIS Bren book though they have many inacuracys which when written were thought to be true. For instance, the BGS states there are only 2 or 3 Bren Plessey Fixed line sights in existence when there is currently 20+ known to exist at the moment. The SAIS makes even simpler errors, it states that Enfield A serial numbers ended at A999, when in fact it ended at A9999.

Hopefully when Peter Laidlers book is printed it will clarify many previous errors, but I'm sure it will create more in its place.

Do you have any other British weapons in your collection? I'm trying to learn more about the Enfield No2 Mk1 revolver but not to much infomation exists.

Cheers, Chris.

[Das reich]

hi m3bobby i have a friend that have a mk1 wit som strange kind of optiks on it and it is original to the gun. the gun was found in 1940 in a stream but it looks ok. do you know what those sights are?

[Reg]

SF Sights ? are they on the doevetail on the left of the gun?

Reg

[3mk]

Hey Woody
Even though I dont collect the same stuff as you,Your collection always amazes me

[Das reich]

SF Sights ? are they on the doevetail on the left of the gun?

Reg

hi they are on the left side in front of the reare sights

[m3bobby]

It sounds like the Plessey fixed line sites which would make this find very rare indeed. There are approx 20+ of these sights in existence, and I cant say I've seen a unstaged photo of them in use.

Heres a photo of one owned by Tom, another Bren collector. My FLS is identical but has a later serial number and I cant find a photo of it as good as this one.



Does it look like this? Can you post photos and serial numbers of gun and sight? I could pin down a month of production for you.

Cheers, Chris.

[wildman]

It's nice to know you guys can date Bren's I'll have to dig mine out and ask about it Pedigree.

[eddy8men]

The depth of knowledge some people possess on certain subjects in the world of militaria never ceases to amaze me ,keep it up fella's it's through your discussions that the rest of us may become a little more enlightened.

all the best for the new year

eddy

[Johnny-D]

Hey Woody
Even though I dont collect the same stuff as you,Your collection always amazes me

Cheers mate, that means a lot!

I think my collection is pretty modest... I've only been collecting since January of this year (2009), but it's great to know some people like it!

Thanks aswel to the guys discussing the Bren. Your knowledge is mind blowing! Anyway, even if the butt isn't 'right', it's still a beautiful gun, which I'm absolutely delighted with!

I'm just on my way to B&Q to pick up some wall brackets to hang my guns!