Carcano Find! Need help Identifying

[AZPhil]

A very nice looking 91/38 ziomanno . Awesome pic of them in use!!

And great info Pat!!
And I vote yes on another thread about late war Carcano's

Thanks to both for posting that.

Semper Fi
Phil

[ziomanno]

Ziomanno,
That's exactly my understanding of the situation. The late war period is very interesting in terms of small arms production in Italy, whether in the RSI or the liberated regions. I read two US Army documents from the post-war period that addressed Italian small arms production, and the nature of the Italian war economy. They were fascinating and showed how the Italian business owners actually benefitted indirectly from the Allied bombing at places like Terni.

The result was that the Germans, who had identified Italian producers as necessary for the German war effort in Italy, organized the collection and movement of all useful parts, components and machinery from intact and damaged factories to the north. They entirely funded their movement and resumed production mostly out of the range of Allied bombing and in the heart of the RSI and German-controlled areas. Some late war Carcanos show evidence of the use of parts from different origins. I have a late war Model 1941 that has a Terni made barrel, but was assembled and numbered at Arma Guerra Cremona. The latter factory ('factories' is probably more accurate) continued production through 1944 and likely into 1945.

The real question is 'who used the late war Carcanos?' The obvious choice would be Italian soldiers loyal to the RSI, but some late war Carcanos show hints of German use, and period photos definitely show this, although some of the rifles and carbines used by the Wehrmacht could have been captured or surrendered after the armistice of September 1943. It's likely that both the RSI and the Germans utilized them. In the USA, late war examples are usually in excellent condition and appear to have been used very little, or not at all.

If there's enough interest here, I can start a separate thread on my late war Carcanos.

Best,
Pat

Hi Pat, great idea about a late war Carcano’s topic: I think it would be interesting, so I vote yes 👍
About the Carcano rifles use after 8/9/43, I agree that both RSI and some German troops were issued with them, including post and pre armistice production: there was a huge number of rifles in Italian military depots or captured by the Whermacht after the armistice. But I think the Germans issued them mainly to rear echelon units, such as Polizei. I’ve readed that some Carcano’s saw action in Berlin during the last battle, when every available gun was put in the field in the hands of Volksturm. Below a couple of pics taken just after the Partisan bombing action in Rome (via Rasella) on March 1944. The Germans are soldiers of the Bozen Polizeiregiment, which suffered 33 casualties during the attack. They carry 91/41 rifles, and are issued with Italian long bayonets and cartridge pouches.

[PRE]

Ziomanno,
Correct, second- or third-tier German units and personnel were the recipients of captured and 'produced under occupation' Carcanos. Thank you for posting those photos. The second photo is the clearest example of that photo that I've seen, the digital copy I have is much lower quality! If I understand correctly, those were taken during the round-up of Italian men in Rome by the Polizei/SS immediately preceding the murders at the Fossa Ardeatini.

There are also several other photos available in the Bundesarchiv Foto file showing field Polizei personnel with Model 1941 rifles in Yugoslavia dating to 1944. I'm surprised they would select the longest rifle in inventory at the time, instead of the shorter and more easily shouldered and transported TS carbines or Moschetti.

Best,
Pat

[ziomanno]

Ziomanno,
Correct, second- or third-tier German units and personnel were the recipients of captured and 'produced under occupation' Carcanos. Thank you for posting those photos. The second photo is the clearest example of that photo that I've seen, the digital copy I have is much lower quality! If I understand correctly, those were taken during the round-up of Italian men in Rome by the Polizei/SS immediately preceding the murders at the Fossa Ardeatini.

There are also several other photos available in the Bundesarchiv Foto file showing field Polizei personnel with Model 1941 rifles in Yugoslavia dating to 1944. I'm surprised they would select the longest rifle in inventory at the time, instead of the shorter and more easily shouldered and transported TS carbines or Moschetti.

Best,
Pat

Correct Pat, the Germans, with the help of Italian RSI soldiers (i.e. X^ MAS unit) and police, seized some 300 people just after the attack, on March 23. While the most were released, 10 of them will be executed the day after during the Fosse Ardeatine massacre, among 325 others.
About the selected weapon, I ask myself your same question: not only the 91/41 is a long rifle, but also has a straight bolt handle, rendering it quite uncomfortable to carry. Maybe because it was the newest produced and thus available in great numbers and in better condition?