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Cut Down Lee Enfield

Article about: I am still 100% certain that this was a RE modified weapon. The fact that the picture is taken in the Hill 60 museum where mining was at its peak would back this up. Sappers cut them down be

  1. #91

    Default Re: Cut Down Lee Enfield

    guess one could also use a cut down rifle as a line launcher...


  2. #92

    Default Re: Cut Down Lee Enfield

    Quote by Guinness12 View Post
    So I have read through this entire thread and there seems to be a lot of speculation over whether or not one of these would be possible. I spoke to an army buddy in the Royal Engineers who reckons that yes - the kick on a SMLE is rough, it wouldn't be so bad on a cut-down. He tried to explain it to me - that the reduced barrel length would reduce the kick and if you held it two handed, not against a shoulder - it might not be as bad.
    Not trying to be nasty here, as I don't know what training Royal Engineers get in physics these days, but your buddy's theory defies Newton's Second and Third Laws of Motion. Personally I would side with Sir Issac on this one. When a bullet is fired from a bolt action rifle, there is a force applied to the bullet (from the propellant exploding) and an equal and opposite force (Newton's 3rd Law) acting on the gun itself. What stops the gun from flying back at the same speed the bullet is that it has more mass. According to Newton's 2nd Law, F=ma (force = mass x acceleration), and therefore, as the force applied to gun and bullet is the same, with the tiny bullet the acceleration is huge, but much smaller for the more massive gun (and firer's body). Obviously, reducing the barrel and butt (and any other part of the gun) will reduce the overall mass of the gun and increase it's acceleration when a round is fired. Right? Cut-down guns kick more because they obey the laws of physics.

    Quote by Guinness12 View Post
    The way I see it is - anyone who's held a Lee Enfield knows its long. Combined with a bayonet its very unwieldy. Combine that with the close-walls of a trench and it makes for some tricky manoeuvres. As someone said - revolvers were costly and for officers only. Why not cut a Lee Enfield down for trench warfare?
    Why not? Because you couldn't just please yourself what weapons you carried. Trench warfare in WW1 wasn't a free-for-all in the style of an 80s movie with Stallone or Arnie in it. Trench fighting and raiding were planned exercises by a professional army. Even for trench raids, a plan was written out, equipment was issued, men were briefed and the action was carried out. Afterwards men were debriefed and reports written. Furthermore, revolvers were issued to Other Ranks throughout the war, both as a personal issue, and as special issues (for trench raids etc). Issue of weapons wasn't based on social class, it was based on what you required for the task you were undertaking. Here is an extract from a trench raid plan from 1917 which lays out the weapons and ammunition carried by the raiding party:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As with most of these things, a mix of riflemen with bayonets and men armed with grenades (bombers) were used. Interestingly, the only weapon assigned to the grenade men was a knobkerrie (a.k.a. the 'trench club'). The whole thing can be read here: Story of a Trench Raid', carried out by the 16th Welch - Boesinghe | First World War Poetry Digital Archive

    Revolvers were actually a lot cheaper than Lee-Enfield rifles. In 1915, the cost of an SMLE Mk III to the British Army was £5 10s, whereas a Webley Mk VI was £3 4s 6d

    I don't know what this gun is or was, but in my opinion, unless it was intended to fire a mortar or launcher or something, it would surely just be a danger to the soldier carrrying it and the men around him? I can't believe any officer would allow a thing like that to be used by a man under his command.

    Rob

  3. #93
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    Default Re: Cut Down Lee Enfield

    Gents let me add 2 p into convo of broken wrist. It's not complitly true. Just like I have mentioned before cut-down Mosin's rifles were used for more that 80 years in Russia and around.

    Google Pics

  4. #94
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    Default Re: Cut Down Lee Enfield

    What about a relic made to look nice????????????. Cheers Terry.

  5. #95

    Default Re: Cut Down Lee Enfield

    Quote by Tango View Post
    What about a relic made to look nice????????????. Cheers Terry.
    That's very likely I would say. Probably a wall decoration piece made from a wrecked gun It does look very much like a flintlock pistol... I would guess it's trench art rather than a weapon.

    Rob

  6. #96
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    Default Re: Cut Down Lee Enfield

    IMHO a genuine weapon made to be carried concealed by a partisan/resistance fighter.

    Regards, Lars

  7. #97

    Default Re: Cut Down Lee Enfield

    Quote by davejb View Post
    The only thing I will say about shortening the length of weapons is that it increases the recoil, i've fired a sawn off shotgun and an ordinary shotgun of the same make, the sawn off nearly floored me, basically because you cant put your body weight against it as you can in the shoulder, as for the use of a cut down SMLE in the trenches, this , if it was used for such a purpose, would be a last ditch effort to stay alive, if you have someone coming at you with a rifle with a bayonet attached, the idea is to keep them as far away as possible, not let them get close enough for you to use a one shot weapon and risk missing or to have other enemy following to gain ground on you, you are on even footing if you have a normal rifle with a bayonet attached against a foe with the same, whether your in trenches or not, after all what is the function and best way to use a rifle, long range, i personally think this item was a piece of weird trench art constructed from a none servicable rifle with no real useable function
    I would have to disagree. I feel the shorter barrel would reduce recoil, pressure has less time to build up behind the round, hence reducing recoil. That’s why artillery and tank barrels have muzzle breaks; this releases the pressure behind the round before it exits the barrel, reducing recoil. It’s simple ballistics. The longer the barrel, the higher the muzzle velocity, pressure behind the round has more time to build up, hence increasing recoil. It’s all to do with Newton’s Laws of Motion, " to every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction”

  8. #98
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    Default Re: Cut Down Lee Enfield

    Good point and true. It's the weight that reduced recoil. I would still imagine that this contraption must deliver quite a kick.

    Regards, Lars

  9. #99

    Default Re: Cut Down Lee Enfield

    Hi,

    Yes weight does play a part, or one should say “mass ", forces are exerted on mass. It takes a certain amount of energy to move a certain amount of mass, i.e. in recoil. Force=mass multiplied by acceleration. Another one of Newton’s Laws if I remember correctly!! My Mechanical Engineering days are a long time ago!!!

    Thats one reason why they didnt fit an 88mm to a panzer 3/4 !

  10. #100
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    Default Re: Cut Down Lee Enfield

    Quote by Tango View Post
    What about a relic made to look nice????????????. Cheers Terry.
    Terry, trust me on this one please. A friend of mine in Ukraine still has his granpas 'obrez' (sown off Mosin)



    Confiscate somewhere in Eastern Europe, nowadays @3.17



    Somewhere in US



    video-game STALKER

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