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M1 Carbine newbie...

Article about: My cousin Marco got in on the action as well:

  1. #11

    Default Re: M1 Carbine newbie...

    Yes it very possible it was in WWII. After WWII US referbed most of there rifles. It very hard for instance to find unferb m1 grand.
    Some people restore us weapons to there wwii spects.
    The rear site for the carbine though can be one like you have or a flip rear site. 1943 they started the non flip site (like yours). As for the bayo lug as stated above it is possible in WWII, but it is very very very late war. Like okinawaish and latter

    nice rifle, stock little beat. i like it shows combat

  2. #12

    Default Re: M1 Carbine newbie...

    looks like a well used rifle it must have seen a lot of combat very nice

    tom

  3. #13

    Default Re: M1 Carbine newbie...

    I e-mailed an Jim at Bavarian M1 Carbines. He is an expert and I am thrilled that he responded quickly. He has me pretty excited about my rifle!

    This is his website: U.S. Carbines during the American Occupation

    This is his response:

    IBM was issued only one serial number block: 3,651,520-4,009,999. So your rifle was one of the first 25,000 of the grand total 346,500 IBM made between August 1943 and May 1944 at the IBM plant in Poughkeepsie, NY. They were the last to receive an M1 Carbine contract from U.S. Army Ordnance, on February 16, 1943.

    IBM Manufacturing History:

    The barrel date 9/43 would be correct for an IBM in the 3,670,000 range.

    One of the things difficult to explain and understand are all the changes that were made and things specific to one manufacturer that the others may not have done. Like the P on the barrel, absent on some barrels. The p proof mark isn't on yours because it has an equivalent, the flaming ordnance bomb. Some IBM barrels have the P, some have the Ordnance bomb. Some were dated, some were not.

    U.S. Ordnance assigned each manufacturer and their subcontractor a 1-4 letter code to identify who made which part. These were assigned part by part, not company by company. so some companies used one mark on a sear and another mark on the trigger, yet they were the same company. Not all parts were marked post WWII. Small parts like springs and pins were not marked. Generally, the location of the mark, the font, and the size vary depending on the contractor or subcontractor.

    Post War Rebuild History:
    In a nutshell, if the carbine was returned to the USA it went through this inspect/rebuild process. Who did the inspect/rebuild on yours is indicated by the U with dots on either side, on the left side of the stock. Underwood was contracted to operate an inspect/rebuild operation about 1951. That U and dots on your rifle means Underwood.

    As part of the inspect rebuild process the carbines were totally disassembled, each part inspected, then totally rebuilt from the parts bins. The parts that came off a carbine didn't stay with the carbine. All were interchangeable so they separated them by part, not by who made it or what carbine it was on when it arrived.

    Certain parts were mandatory replacement parts. The barrel band with bayonet lug, the rotary safety, the mag catch with the big M (holds 30 round mags better than those without the big M), the adjustable rear sight. Yours has all these upgrades, meaning it's consistent with a carbine that went thru the Ordnance inspect/rebuild process.

    Which brings me to the stock. The stock was manufactured by Trimble Nursery in Rochester, NY(TN in the slingwell. Funny thing is, Trimble made cribs and other wooden childrens items before the war.) for carbines manufactured by National Postal Meter (NPM with Ordnance inspectors initials and proof mark on right side of stock). It may have been placed on your carbine at the end of the rebuild process, or by whoever used the carbine later.

    Operational History:
    The 1 and 0 on the bottom of the stock grip was what is referred to as a rack mark. As is the serial number in the left side of the stock. Whoever used the carbine stored it upright in racks. The numbers allowed them to distinguish one carbine from another while in the rack. Usually if the rack mark is on the left side, the rack held the carbines at a slight angle exposing the left side of the stock. If the rack held the carbines upright, the rack mark on the handgrip would be used. The SO or whatever it is on the right side of the stock was put there by someone who used it, for whatever reason they had.

    The question is, who used it after it was rebuilt?

    I might have an answer for you. Look close at the barrel between the stock and front sight. See if you can find a marking with letters like C.A.I. over Georgia, VT or NWM CO over SAC CA. These are importer markings, placed there by the company that bought the carbine and brought it back to the USA. This marking has been mandatory since 1968. Yours probably has the C.A.I. markings. Before I go into what they mean, let's see if they are present. Also, let me know if the marking is stamped or engraved or etched. Those engraved are like the old dot matrix printer with the letters made up of a series of dots. This info helps me date when it was brought back.

    I suspect who used your carbine was Israel. They are the only country I'm aware of that used the serial number in that location on the left side of the stock, with that size and type font. Two companies imported these, Century Arms and New Helvetica Marketing Corp (Old Sacramento Armory). Assuming someone didn't swap the stock out after it came back. I don't think that's the case, looking at the pictures.

    What you Have:
    A genuine U.S. Ordnance contracted M1 Carbine manufactured by IBM in late 1943, that is historically correct for where it's been and what it was used for. Collectors tend to prefer the "all original" markings on their carbines. That's what I call the Golden Fleece. These were made as war babies, not for someone's collection. When I see an "all correct" carbine I'm very suspecicious that someone somewhere reconstructed it into what they believed to be all correct. Long story, but these guns were made for war during wartime, reconditioned, went to war again, reconditioned, then provided as military assistance to other countries. Over half the carbines made were given or sold to other countries 1941-1983 and maybe even later.

    Have a look at my page of records extracted from the National Archives that show who got what and when...look at Israel:

    Foreign Military Assistance

    "Counterfeit":
    This is a word that can have different meanings to different people. It infers the carbine or it's parts were counterfeited by someone and built into something they could sell as an IBM. If something gets "counterfeited", it's usually the markings on the parts. Markings get removed and replace them with markings that are much more rare and valuable.

    This isn't the case with what I can see of your carbine. If someone wanted to up the value they wouldn't put those parts on it, they'd use parts from an earlier time period. I don't need to know the markings for this evaluation, the parts speak for themselves.

    Value:
    Different people are interested in different things, so value is what the majority usually will pay for it. From what I have seen of yours, it's worth ~$800. Maybe a few dollars less, maybe a few more, depending on the insides. I'm assuming there is an import mark, which devalues a carbine but at the same time helps reconstruct it's history.

    I'm a bit different than most collectors. First, I'm not a collector of anything. My interest is history, and the M1 Carbines are my area of interest. I'd much rather have a carbine that I preserve it's overall history than one someone reconstructed into eye candy. I own 15 GI carbines that are part of a historical display I plan on donating to a museum. I have a separate as a shooter I built from surplus GI parts onto a receiver made in the mid 1990's by Springfield. I have a reference library of about 25 receivers and barrels from various different manufacturers. Some are broken. All are good reference material.

    Hope this is what you were looking for.

    Jim
    He was right, my carbine has Georgia, VT stamped into the barrel. So yeah, my carbine was used in Israel.


  4. #14

    Default Re: M1 Carbine newbie...

    Very nice M1 Carbine. Now you need a live firing M1 Garand so your carbine won't feel lonely.


    Take care

  5. #15

    Default Re: M1 Carbine newbie...

    Quote by theotherhomer View Post
    Very nice M1 Carbine. Now you need a live firing M1 Garand so your carbine won't feel lonely.

    Take care
    Thanks for the kind words!

    I was thinking I'd pick up a matching IBM Browning Automatic Rifle

  6. #16

    Default Re: M1 Carbine newbie...

    That is one good looking carbine. great purchase.
    Cheers.
    Nuno

  7. #17

    Default Re: M1 Carbine newbie...

    Thanks for the kind words everyone! I'll be shooting my rifle for the first time this weekend and I'm very excited!

    I'll do my best to post pics and maybe a vid. I might wear my front seam, fixed bale m1 helmet

  8. #18
    ?

    Default Re: M1 Carbine newbie...

    Sweet looking War Baby! I see you got answers from Jim so I won't repeat all he said. If you want to know a bit more about who made the various parts, strip it down and let me know what letter codes are stamped on them - almost every part of your carbine should have a manufacturer code stamped into it. I'll gladly compare the list to my reference book - War Baby.

    Your carbine definately appears to have gone to Israel at some point - it has all the "classic" markings of one that did.

    I own 3 carbines at this point - an Inland, a 95% original National Postal Meter that was my first carbine bought before I knew anything about them and didn't realize how pristine it was...and paid $450 for it 3 yearss ago, and my pride and joy, a Rock-ola. They are all fun to shoot!!

    Enjoy your piece of history!!
    MarkV
    COL, U.S. Army (Ret.)

  9. #19

    Default Re: M1 Carbine newbie...

    Quote by MarkV View Post
    Sweet looking War Baby! I see you got answers from Jim so I won't repeat all he said. If you want to know a bit more about who made the various parts, strip it down and let me know what letter codes are stamped on them - almost every part of your carbine should have a manufacturer code stamped into it. I'll gladly compare the list to my reference book - War Baby.

    Your carbine definately appears to have gone to Israel at some point - it has all the "classic" markings of one that did.

    I own 3 carbines at this point - an Inland, a 95% original National Postal Meter that was my first carbine bought before I knew anything about them and didn't realize how pristine it was...and paid $450 for it 3 yearss ago, and my pride and joy, a Rock-ola. They are all fun to shoot!!

    Enjoy your piece of history!!
    Thanks for the kind words! I'll definitely take you up on that offer!

    I just got back from shooting my carbine the first time.

    In general, I LOVED IT!

    Hamming it up for the camera:


    I did have one problem... it seems that 2 of the 3 USGI mags that I purchased for my rifle are too worn out. They would fall out of the receiver after one shot!

    Luckily, the third mag I have worked great. Not really a big deal, but I had to keep on reloading the same mag over and over instead of just swapping mags.

    Shooting:


    Just in case you guys were wondering, I have a defect since birth with my left arm... I can't rotate my hand enough to properly hold the rifle.

    I have very little experience with shooting... with my second mag of 15 rnds, I was able to put together this grouping:



  10. #20
    ?

    Default Re: M1 Carbine newbie...

    My guess is that your mag catch is worn, too. That's the button you push in to release the magazine. if the catch is worn - and the magazines are a it worn, too you have that problem. The mag catch is an easy fix - you can do it yourself in a minute at most. If you want to try, let me know. I think I have a spare catch I can send you.

    Your magazines should also be marked with a manufacturer stamp - on the back edge.

    You can't be unhappy with that grouping given that the weapon has not been sighted for you. And, although people get hung up with how many they can put in the 10 ring, if you were firing at center mass of an enemy soldier you'd have hit 13 times. Good work!
    MarkV
    COL, U.S. Army (Ret.)

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