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Police swoop on military gun collector as he drives to his mum's

Article about: Time to remember we all live in police states, and this is about control! No guns = you do what you're told. I seem to recall that gun crime exploded in the UK when private citizens had thei

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Police swoop on military gun collector as he drives to his mum's

    Sorry that I have to disagree a bit. While there may be cases, where the police overreact and where stupid bureaucracy comes in there certainly is a need to check on guns. The recent case in Oakland just demonstrates that. Many of the guns used in heinous crimes are stolen/taken from harmless but totally irresponsible collectors/hunters/parents etc.

    Compare this to the drug laws. Owning an ounce of marihuana will get you in more trouble usually than most of the cases cited here. When it comes to the possible damage done to innocent bystanders, an ounce of marihuana won't even stand a chance against guns.

    How would you all react when your child/wife/friend gets shot and killed by a weapon taken from a careless gunowner?

    I know that I am probably going to take some flak now. Still, leaving the butt of a machine gun out in the open in a car rightfully warrants some tough measures - IMHO. We can argue about how certain cases are handled but I believe that guns, let alone automatic guns and handguns, should be kept in very safe places and I think that the police/authorities should have the right to check the storage conditions of suspected fully working dangerous guns. If they sometimes go over the top they should be sued but I don't have a problem when they do their job to check possible dangers to the public. If you leave (even deactivated) guns out in the open even in a normal home you will always have to realize the danger that they could be taken by burglars, relatives, kids etc. And if someone tells on you how should the authorities know beforehand that they are all deactivated?

    Quite a few of the terrible amok shootings recently were results of such carelessness. And I bet that an even larger number of regular gun crimes are not committed with legally owned guns or backstreet Saturday Night Specials.

    The only thing I can't understand is why totally rusty and obviously non-functioning relics fall under these laws. I do think, however, that gun collecting is a dangerous hobby and thus should be checked accordingly. Nobody complains much about the purchase restrictions of certain chemicals (used for drugs or explosives), so why should equally dangerous guns not be regulated?

    I agree with the guy on the other forum (link posted somewhere here) who invited the authorities to check his collection before such a dramatic situation (police morning raid) could happen.

    If only one Columbine, Oakland, Winnenden, Kauhajoki etc. can be thwarted, I believe that the police have done a good job. And I bet there are hundreds if not thousands of "regular" gun-related crimes that will be a lot more difficult to commit when gun ownership is regulated and checked. I know it won't make a huge difference right away but if your relative/wife/kid are spared you might think differently. Sad thing is that you can't make a statistic about all the people being saved due to stricter enforcement. A hint might be the guy in Ansbach, Germany who attacked people in his school with an axe, knives etc. If he had had access to firearms, it is safe to assume that there would have been quite a few fatalities.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Regards,

    Jerry

  2. #32

    Default Re: Police swoop on military gun collector as he drives to his mum's

    hell in san antionio texas,,every day thay find a body and over there,its like every day news here,these gang bangers got bigger guns than the cops here,and the drug cartels,thats way texas has a conceld hand gun lics you can get just for a 1 day corurse,

  3. #33

    Default Re: Police swoop on military gun collector as he drives to his mum's

    Gun control is political, not practical.

    Politicians want to be seen to be doing something about issues that scare the public, so they invent laws and regulations that win votes but do nothing about the issues. They use phrases like "tough measures" and the like, and take these tough measures out on law-abiding citizens. Criminals couldn't care less about gun control laws because they are not affected by them.

    Quote by Jerry View Post
    How would you all react when your child/wife/friend gets shot and killed by a weapon taken from a careless gunowner?
    I am sure I would be heartbroken, but however I felt, I'm sure my intelligence wouldn't be affected. A murder is hardly the fault of a burglary victim. What you are doing, Jerry, is the same as the weak politicians: blaming law-abiding citizens for the acts of criminals and the mentally disturbed. (I am guessing from what you say, though, that you have probably smoked so much pot you can't see the difference between fantasy and reality any more?).

    This statement however, is morally offensive and intellectually insulting:

    Quote by Jerry View Post
    Compare this to the drug laws. Owning an ounce of marihuana will get you in more trouble usually than most of the cases cited here. When it comes to the possible damage done to innocent bystanders, an ounce of marihuana won't even stand a chance against guns.
    Trafficking marijuana and other drugs is the root cause of most gun violence, and should be treated aggressively. Every pathetic pothead (and any other junkie) is just feeding criminals with money, and adding to the problem. They are the ones I would blame for a gun-related death by a stolen firearm before I would blame the former owner.

    Drugs kill people every day, one way or another, and do a lot more damage to people's lives than bullets ever will.

    Rob

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Police swoop on military gun collector as he drives to his mum's

    Quote by Battery Command Post View Post

    -------------------------------------

    Politicians want to be seen to be doing something about issues that scare the public, so they invent laws and regulations that win votes but do nothing about the issues. They use phrases like "tough measures" and the like, and take these tough measures out on law-abiding citizens. Criminals couldn't care less about gun control laws because they are not affected by them.

    ----------------------------------------
    That is SO not true! Cracking down hard on guns and banning them with tough gun laws is in order to protect the citizens from evil guns!
    It will instantly eradicate all gun crime permanently. Just look at how effective banning handguns in the UK worked......
    ......wait, what!!!

    BWAhAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA ... !
    (sorry, couldnt help myself)

  5. #35

    Default Re: Police swoop on military gun collector as he drives to his mum's

    well its not the guns kill people,its the person behind the gun,people hear of a mass shooting wants to band guns becouse of it,hell thay should go after the person but him or she behind bars for a long time,and not let them out in 5 years for good behavor,

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Police swoop on military gun collector as he drives to his mum's

    I feel for you english blokes and your oppressive societal/Police attitude. I do have to say though Jerry , that your absolute that ALL gunowners that have had weapons stolen are somehow daft to be polite is quite offensive. Where I live , and hunt too rifles.shotguns and pistols are tools...locked up and unloaded they are useless. It's the parasites in society that steal anything they can to peddle for cash for their habits..... irregardless how well you lock them up or not.
    You come to my rural area and you are not from around 'here' you immeadiately arouse suspicion for better for worse. Most crime in my state involving theft of firearms is almost always drugged out family members doing the theft to support their habits. I have personally seen families self destruct in a frenzy of stealing from itself ... to include even furniture to garner the cash for that next bump .
    The old adage that a lock only keeps an honest man honest is fairly accurate. One great thing in my rural area if you get a reputation for not taking any bunk , gun in hand or not.... problems are few and far between. Bu tthe miscreants that may indulge themselves with you know no matter what some lead may very well find it's way speeding toward them which keeps the riff raff to an absolute minimum.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Police swoop on military gun collector as he drives to his mum's

    How about this:

    List of countries by firearm-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Leaving out all the third world and developing countries, the facts are that the US is leading this list of firearm-related deaths by a huge margin.

    The first European country behind the US is Finland - this is most probably due to the fall of the iron curtain which also affected the imports of illegal firearms to Western Europe. Apart from that, firearm laws are the most liberal in Finland and Switzerland (Western Europe).

    When you compare the firearm-related deaths and homicides, countries like France, Germany, UK and the Netherlands rank very far behind the US.

    When you re-sort the list by the amount of firearm-related homicides by country, the difference is even more striking. The first Western European country behind the US is Italy with it's history of Mafia-killings still at only about 1/3 of the homicide rate. The other Western European countries are at just a fraction of the amount.

    I am not condoning the use of drugs and I wish you would refrain to insult me just because I used that comparison. But drugs and firearm-related deaths just don't correlate with liberal drug-laws. The Netherlands are probably the most liberal country in that respect - look at their homicide rate!

    The US has been famous for very liberal gun laws in the past, where you could walk into a gun store and buy what you wanted until a few years ago without any regulation. Even now guns can be bought without much hassle in many states - compared to Western Europe.

    I know that you can't take all of the existing guns out of the market with a law. But the above statistic proves that liberal gun laws kill people and I would love to see how you want to trash these facts.

    I know that I am in the wrong forum with my views - a bit like posting this at an NRA forum I strongly believe that guns should be controlled, however. And I do still believe that people should be able to hunt and use guns for sports but the recreational use of guns should be controlled. I can't see why fully functional AK-47's or MP40's should be in someone's display case at home without any security measures.

    Regards,

    Jerry

    P.S.: here is another, more recent statistic:

    Murders with firearms statistics - countries compared - NationMaster Crime

  8. #38

    Default Re: Police swoop on military gun collector as he drives to his mum's

    There used to be a saying:

    "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns".........
    Regards,


    Steve.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Police swoop on military gun collector as he drives to his mum's

    Jerry, you mentioned Switzerland and that you cant see the sense in private ownership of ‘fully functional’ AK47s (I assume you mean full-auto gun ownership in the US, as there are plenty of fully funtional semi-auto rifles around. Many European citizens hunt boar with the semi-auto Browning rifles etc for that important follow-up shot).
    In regards to the Swiss: Males undergo military training and are part of the ‘quick-response’ militia from the 20 to 30 years of age. Members of the militia keep their full-auto rifle at home.
    After militia service, former militia members can choose to keep their rifle at home.
    The Swiss government sponsors rifle traning and shooting comeptitions for citizens regardless of gender.
    Further more, the Swiss have a proud tradition of shooting soceities.
    Sale of ammo is subsidized by the government
    In some 2001 statistics, it is noted that there are about 420,000 automatic rifles in private hands. Additionally, there are some 320,000 semi-auto rifles and military pistols exempted from military service in private possession. In addition, there are several hundred thousand other semi-automatic weapon in private hands. The total number of firearms in private homes is estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million. So not only are there government sponsored weapons but also loads of guns in private hands.
    Why you would mention Switzerland in your arguments, I do not know, for the Swiss are a perfect example, that you can have loads of guns amongst the population and a very low gun crime rate (gun crimes do happen of course, but see below).
    So you mentioning Switzerland is actually counterproductive to your argument. The Swiss are actually a picture perfect example of how private gun ownership can work.
    I have quotes statistics, but I likewise would like you to go into the statistics you seem so fond of and go check firearms related deaths i Switzerland compared to the size of the population and the number of firearms in private hands.
    I all honesty you could not have picked a worse example to mention in your argument against guns in private hands.

    Gun – foot – bang? (sorry for the pun)

    If its any consolation to you, a wise man once said, there are: “Lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

    As for the US, you mention examples of full auto rifles in private hands. Again a very bad example and Ill tell you why. The private ownership of full-auto guns in the US are amongst the most strictly regulated gun laws. Not only do you have to have absolutely no criminal record, you have to keep it that way. The slightest infraction and your guns are gone. As a result, the full-auto owners have to keep toeing the line or else.....
    So again, you have citizens who are law abiding and able to keep certain guns. If they want to retain ownership of said guns, they have to stay law abiding. These guns are of course kept in guns safes.

    For some reason you mentioned the Ansbach Amokläufer. Why you would drag out a three year old incident of a loon throwing Molotov cocktails at his class mates, I do not know.
    Sadly the world has moved on since then – for better or for worse. Sadly, most criminals in Europe buy full-auto guns flowing into the West from Eastern Europe. To believe that they mainly use stolen private guns is just plain wrong.
    What I noted and what ‘scares’ me the tiniest bit, is that you say, that the Ansbach incident would have been worse, had the loon had guns.
    That is typical for the anti-gunners ( no offence. Just for lack of better words). Dont look at the reason for the incident, no counting our blessings that he actually didnt manage to kill anybody or what could have been done to intercept said loon before he developed these mad tendencies. No, every time a crime happens: It would have been even worse with guns involved.
    Personally, I think throwing petroleum jelly at innocent bystanders is pretty bad.
    BTW The police was able to ‘subdue’ him .....with guns.
    Jerry, I stress that I mean no offence by the above. Just calling it like I see it.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Police swoop on military gun collector as he drives to his mum's

    I spend a lot of my time digging through reference sources and sorting through statistical analyses, as part of my role as a clinical pharmacist. Please don't cite Wikipedia as a reference source as most of what is on there is unsubstantiated nonsense. For instance, the first link you have put up shows the rate in the main table as 100.something for the US. However, if you follow the reference source itself, the rate is 10.something. Someone has transposed the figure incorrectly.

    Statistics are great in some instances, but have to be substantiated by proper analysis. There is no evidence of this in either citation, which basically means you can read them however you want and make whatever inference you want. You may be aware that all governments use this form of manipulation to strengthen arguments, yet the opposition will use the same information to weaken them.

    And you are correct when you say you're in the wrong forum with your views. However, this shouldn't mean you can't be a member, but I do wish you'd get your information right before you go blarting on.

    Steve T

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