PPK fake?

[AgulAga]

Help determine. This is a fake or ....?
on our forum this has been identified as fake

According to the owner of the bone lining
The owner does not claim that this is the original, he wants to know what it is.

PPK is located in Ukraine, and has a label deactivation known plant.
We have been strange to see such a mark on the "original" PPK

Let us hear your comments


sorry for my English.. I usig google translate

[blackheart0866]

Too bad its deactivated, as even if its a fake, it would still be nice to have.

Brian

[mr.dirt]

I will base my reply on my personal experience with WW2 cameras that are available in the Ukraine.
In Kiev there are several former Russian companies that turned out exact copies of the Leica IIIb and IIIc before, during and post WW2 under the F.E.D. name. They are not bad cameras and if you are a Leica shooter and do not want to take your "cherry" IIIb into harm's way, you buy a FED and use that since all the Leica accessories and lenses fit. There is also a firm named ARSENAL which for many years has produced an exact copy of the Hassleblad 500CM camera named the KIEV 66. The russians "captured" the Carl Zeiss works in Jena during their invasion and took the entire factory back to Kiev and began to produce the KIEV II which was the same as the CONTAX IIa which was Zeiss Jena's major product. Switch the nameplates and it is very hard to tell the difference.

From the former FED works (in Ukraine and also Krasnogorsk, Russia) we get hundreds of "captured" Leica IIIb and IIIc cameras but only the extremely rare ones with HEER, LUFT and KM markings in the appropriate paint/leather trim (green, blue and grey) unless you know EXACTLY what you are looking for, you can and will be taken by a fake. The top of the rangfinder housing with the FED name and serial number is milled/ground and then polished and it is engraved with engraving that matches the Leica font/script, the edges of the new engraving are dulled and small "wear and tear" is added and a $150 camera becomes a $2500 camera until you disassemble it and find the cryllic lettering where you should have German.
Then we have the Herman Georing Luftwaffe Leica IIIC in 24K gold plate, alligator leather frim, complete with HG in script, Luftwaffe insignia and Nazi eagle or the Admiral Donetz/pick a famous UBoat Captain Kerigsmarine Leica IIIb in grey enamel with same KM insignia and Nazi eagle. I have seen and held the Erwin Rommel HEER version compl;ete with North African Date palm tree symbol engraved on the top. Plus there is an Adolph Hitler version as well, said to have been found in the bunker in Berlin (the same guy will sell you prints of AH and Eva in porno found in the very same camera for an extra few rubles).
Now the records of Leica are easy to research as the Wild family held the company until 10 years ago when the sold it. There were NEVER andy cameras made in 24K gold plate or with any of the insignia. The expert engravers have had a field day and have produced so many fakes they sel them on eBay. Leica "Safari" in Rhino and Crocodile skin (Chinese fale leather). Arsenal supplied KIEV 66's have been turned into Bailkonur Space Program cameras or Apollo/Soyuz NASA cameras that have all the exact markings as the REAL NASA Hassleblad 500CM in the Kansas Cosmodrome that went to the Moon in Apollo 11!

Now do you REALLY think the AH PPK is real?

Remember Mauser produced the PPK again in the 1970's/80's using the same tooling, many of these have been redone and foisted on the unsuspecting as WW2 "captured" PPK's complete with KM/HEER markings and Nazi eagles.

Again - Do you REALLY think it is AH's PPK???

[blackheart0866]

Fake or not, that would be an very nice addition to my collection, Im sure the original AH PPK was taken by some Russian soldier, that is , if it was in the bunker at the time, and if it wasnt, and at the Eagles nest, then some US Soldier has it.

Brian

[Jason L]

I will base my reply on my personal experience with WW2 cameras that are available in the Ukraine.
In Kiev there are several former Russian companies that turned out exact copies of the Leica IIIb and IIIc before, during and post WW2 under the F.E.D. name. They are not bad cameras and if you are a Leica shooter and do not want to take your "cherry" IIIb into harm's way, you buy a FED and use that since all the Leica accessories and lenses fit. There is also a firm named ARSENAL which for many years has produced an exact copy of the Hassleblad 500CM camera named the KIEV 66. The russians "captured" the Carl Zeiss works in Jena during their invasion and took the entire factory back to Kiev and began to produce the KIEV II which was the same as the CONTAX IIa which was Zeiss Jena's major product. Switch the nameplates and it is very hard to tell the difference.

From the former FED works (in Ukraine and also Krasnogorsk, Russia) we get hundreds of "captured" Leica IIIb and IIIc cameras but only the extremely rare ones with HEER, LUFT and KM markings in the appropriate paint/leather trim (green, blue and grey) unless you know EXACTLY what you are looking for, you can and will be taken by a fake. The top of the rangfinder housing with the FED name and serial number is milled/ground and then polished and it is engraved with engraving that matches the Leica font/script, the edges of the new engraving are dulled and small "wear and tear" is added and a $150 camera becomes a $2500 camera until you disassemble it and find the cryllic lettering where you should have German.
Then we have the Herman Georing Luftwaffe Leica IIIC in 24K gold plate, alligator leather frim, complete with HG in script, Luftwaffe insignia and Nazi eagle or the Admiral Donetz/pick a famous UBoat Captain Kerigsmarine Leica IIIb in grey enamel with same KM insignia and Nazi eagle. I have seen and held the Erwin Rommel HEER version compl;ete with North African Date palm tree symbol engraved on the top. Plus there is an Adolph Hitler version as well, said to have been found in the bunker in Berlin (the same guy will sell you prints of AH and Eva in porno found in the very same camera for an extra few rubles).
Now the records of Leica are easy to research as the Wild family held the company until 10 years ago when the sold it. There were NEVER andy cameras made in 24K gold plate or with any of the insignia. The expert engravers have had a field day and have produced so many fakes they sel them on eBay. Leica "Safari" in Rhino and Crocodile skin (Chinese fale leather). Arsenal supplied KIEV 66's have been turned into Bailkonur Space Program cameras or Apollo/Soyuz NASA cameras that have all the exact markings as the REAL NASA Hassleblad 500CM in the Kansas Cosmodrome that went to the Moon in Apollo 11!

Now do you REALLY think the AH PPK is real?

Remember Mauser produced the PPK again in the 1970's/80's using the same tooling, many of these have been redone and foisted on the unsuspecting as WW2 "captured" PPK's complete with KM/HEER markings and Nazi eagles.

Again - Do you REALLY think it is AH's PPK???

I am not sure how to compare cameras to guns. I can not say anything about the authenticity of this pistol.....but the the inscription is H. Himmler, which was a valid presentation inscription on some pistols.

[AgulAga]

See picture. Label the plant to hold deactivation.
Gold deposited on it. Accordingly, do engraving and coating after deactivation. This detonation 2002-2004 year.

[militarymania]

neat fakerooo,,,

[HARRY THE MOLE]

Very nice pistol whatever it is. As for the Leica fakes... I have a 1936 made Leica 11A (black finish). And if you put it at the side of one of the Leica fakes the differences are very obvious. I saw two of these fake Leica's at an arms-fair just last week going for the fairly high price of £120 each.

[big ned]

Fake or not, that would be an very nice addition to my collection, Im sure the original AH PPK was taken by some Russian soldier, that is , if it was in the bunker at the time, and if it wasnt, and at the Eagles nest, then some US Soldier has it.

Brian

The pistol that Hitler commited suicide with was apparently picked up by an anonymous member of the bunker staff and has remained with his family ever since.

Another PPK owned by Hitler is in the collection of a U.S. museum i believe.

Regards, Ned.

[mr.dirt]

Here is another Himmler fake for sale at Greg Martini Auctions
Lot #3101. *Rare Walther PP H. Himmler Presentation Engraved Semi-Automatic Pistol
Description: Serial no. 213372P, 7.65mm cal., 3.87" barrel, blue finish, fixed sight, black Walther banner checkered grips. Total oakleaf engraved to include the bottom of the magazine and grip screw. Eagle-N proofed on slide below ejection port and engraved on top left slide: Dem Tdpferen vom Reichsfuhrer-SS H.Himmler. ("To the Bravest from RFSS H. Himmler").
Exceedingly rare and one of only a handful known, this rare early wartime PP was evidently a presentation piece from RF-SS Heinrich Himmler. Little definitive information is known on these exquisitely engraved pieces, but they must have been ordered by the RF-SS in one engraving lot, as the known examples have serial numbers in a tight range. Featured in Rankin's books on Walther Pistols are both the PP and the PPK in this configuration.




Condition: Excellent. Retaining 99% dark blue finish and appearing virtually as new. Action is crisp, bore is bright.

Estimate: $20,000 - $40,000

Greg Martin Auctions - Lot #3101 - *Rare Walther PP H. Himmler Presentation Engraved Semi-Automatic Pistol

Except...Dem Tdpferen Vom Reichsführer-SS H.Himmler. ("To the Bravest from RFSS H. Himmler"). Correct would be in German: Dem Tapferen vom Reichsführer-... and there are obvious spelling errors on the certificate.


or this one Craig Gottlieb Militaria, Gallery, Himmler Presentation PP
"One of less than 10 known in the world, this is an early 1940s vintage PP that was presented by Heinrich Himmler. We don't know much about these, other than they must have been ordered by the Reichsfuhrer in one batch, as the serial numbers are always in a very close range. Both the PP and the PPK exist, and are featured in Rankin's books on Walther."

and a knowledgeable poster on the Jan C Still Luger forum said
"Does that engraving work correlate with the well know Walther author and collector who got caught with the Walther that collectors had identified as a plain one but wound up fully engraved and for sale a few years later? "

So call it what you will but there are LOTS of Fakes out there made by unscrupulous scum who turn a $150 PPK into a $20K to $40K PPK....