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Winchester M97 trench gun, M1A1 carbine, M1911A1 Colt – my U.S. collection favourites.

Article about: M97, my favorite shotgun of all time. I have shot one and they are cool. One of the few where you can hold the trigger and pump away

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Winchester M97 trench gun, M1A1 carbine, M1911A1 Colt – my U.S. collection favourites.

    I would not and have not shot my collectible guns especially the ones that are in the condition of drm3m's. Beautiful specimens of 3 WW II collectibles.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Winchester M97 trench gun, M1A1 carbine, M1911A1 Colt – my U.S. collection favourites.

    Thx. a lot for showing !

    Great !

  3. #23

    Default Re: Winchester M97 trench gun, M1A1 carbine, M1911A1 Colt – my U.S. collection favourites.

    Indeed, beautiful pieces. They are all in such wonderful condition.........!
    Regards,


    Steve.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Winchester M97 trench gun, M1A1 carbine, M1911A1 Colt – my U.S. collection favourites.

    Thanks for all the positive comments.


    MarkV
    In response to your comment;

    "I assume you know but wanted to mention that the magazines displayed for your M911A1 are commercial post-70s manufacture. The WWII magazines were not marked on the bottom of the floor plate - rather, if they were marked (some Colt mags were unmarked), they carried small letter(s) on the top rounded front lip of the floor plate. The ones you have - without a "." in front of the 45 many times will not properly feed and are not made by Colt."

    If you have Clawsons book and check page 51 you will find the following;

    "Commercial magazines were also transferred to the military contract.
    They were full blued with riveted bases, inscribed on the bottom “COLT 45 AUTO.”
    These transferred magazines were parkerized on the bottom to a depth of about ¼ inch to dull the highly polished base that was exposed when the magazine was inserted.
    These magazines, along with standard military magazines, were randomly issued with all pistols at that time."

    I got this M1911A1 Colt rig from the family of the Vet that brought it back.
    The three magazines were all loaded when I got it.

    Years ago I asked John Peppers about these magazines and he also mentionned what Clawson related above.
    John knows a lot more about these pistols than I do.

    David

    This Colt was delivered to the Springfield Armory on June 25 1942.





    Last edited by drm3m; 04-07-2012 at 09:51 PM.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Winchester M97 trench gun, M1A1 carbine, M1911A1 Colt – my U.S. collection favourites.

    My intent was/is not to rain on the parade - and I certainly will defer to the experts. It was my understanding that magazinesmarked like yours were post-WWII commercial and that the pre-1970 models were marked .45 as opposed to 45.

    Again, you have a beautiful collection. Thanks for sharing.
    MarkV
    COL, U.S. Army (Ret.)

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Winchester M97 trench gun, M1A1 carbine, M1911A1 Colt – my U.S. collection favourites.

    Thanks MarkV,

    Back in 2004 when I bought this Colt rig I knew nothing about these magazines.
    It was only after communicating with John Peppers who is very savvy concerning 1911s and 1911A1s that he made me aware of these commercial magazines having been transferred to the military contract.
    I guess that Colt was struggling to deal with their military contracts at that time.
    The U.S had just entered the war at that point in 1941/1942 , and I am sure that the demands on Colt were huge.

    Your comment caused me to look through Clawson's book which confirmed what John had told me some years ago.

    David

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Winchester M97 trench gun, M1A1 carbine, M1911A1 Colt – my U.S. collection favourites.

    Scout’s comment in post #16

    "Imagine the 'impact' of the M97 in France (sorry for the pun). Im a big fan of the Bergmann MPi18, which would have been good for cleaning trenches too. But speaking of cleaning; I believe the MPi18 is more finicky and would have been more prone to toppage in the mud and grit warfare of the trenches, than would the M97. Expecially if the complicated and cumbersome snail drum mag was used (imagine navigating a trench with that thing sticking out)."


    The MP18.1 manufactured by Theodor Bergmann Waffenbau Abteilung was the first practical submachine gun used in combat. It was introduced into service in 1918 by the German Army during World War I as the primary weapon of the Stosstruppen, assault groups specialized in trench combat.





    The TM08 (snail drum magazine) must have been awkward to move around with on the MP18.

    The photo below shows the TM08 with the magazine loader in place.




    US Trench Guns In The Great War.

    The shotgun's effectiveness did not go unnoticed by the German government, which viewed the use of shotguns as a serious breach of international rules of warfare and lodged an official protest on September 14, 1918. The Germans sent a telegram to U.S. Secretary of State Robert Lansing which stated, in part: "The German Government protests against the use of shotguns by the American Army and calls attention to the fact that, according to the laws of war, every prisoner found to have in his possession such guns or ammunition belonging thereto forfeits his life."

    This link will take you to this article ....for they that are interested.

    US Military Shotguns


    The photo below shows a WWI Winchester Model 1897 trench gun and riot gun.



    The M97 trench gun that I own is WWII vintage.
    WWI Model 1897 trench guns are rare and very expensive when found.

    U.S. Property markings on a WWI Model 1897 Winchester trench gun.



    These are the U.S. Property markings on a WWII Winchester M97 trench gun.



    David
    Last edited by drm3m; 04-09-2012 at 02:54 AM.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Winchester M97 trench gun, M1A1 carbine, M1911A1 Colt – my U.S. collection favourites.

    There is not many parts in pump action that can malfunction, compared to a SMG.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Winchester M97 trench gun, M1A1 carbine, M1911A1 Colt – my U.S. collection favourites.

    I like period photos.
    I have had a difficult time finding period photos showing M1A1 carbines and M97 trench guns.

    Here are a few that I found, if anyone has some that they could add that would be great.

    Two M1A1 carbines seen in this photo.
    The first fellow has the stock folded.
    The third fellow has it over his shoulder, you can see the pistol grip quite clearly.

    The caption for this photo is;

    Freezing march over miles of mountain roads takes a Canadian-U.S. battalion off to another succession of heights whose skilled defense by the Germans led to a long stalemate at Cassino.
    (Monte Cassino/Italy)



    This photo shows the jump scabbard for the M1A1 carbine.



    A soldier with his gear.



    A more serious weapon.



    A number of trench guns shown in this photo.
    I don't know if this is early WWII based on the helmets...or WWI?
    Maybe someone that is familiar with this style of helmet can tell.
    I have since been told that this is an early WWII photo because of the vintage of the helmets.



    A guard with a trench gun.



    David
    Last edited by drm3m; 04-09-2012 at 05:30 AM.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Winchester M97 trench gun, M1A1 carbine, M1911A1 Colt – my U.S. collection favourites.

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	329696those guns are cool,,i have 2 m1 carbines a winshester,and a postal meter there both great,,

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