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WW1 German Issued Bergman Bayard

Article about: Enjoy this Belgian Bergman Bayard Issued to a German WW1 Santis Unit in 1914.. Cal 9mm Bergman Bayard..BILL

  1. #1

    Default WW1 German Issued Bergman Bayard

    Enjoy this Belgian Bergman Bayard Issued to a German WW1 Santis Unit in 1914.. Cal 9mm Bergman Bayard..BILL

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  2. #2

    Default Re: WW1 German Issued Bergman Bayard

    Bergman/Bayard ammo...........
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    "As long as there are brave men and warriors the halls of Valhalla will never be silent or empty"

    In memory of my father William T. Grist December 26, 1920--September 10, 2009..
    901st. Ordnance H.A.M. North Africa, Italy, Southern France....ETO
    Also in memory of my mother Jane Kidd Grist Feb. 22, 1920-- September 27, 2009... WWll War bride May 1942...

  3. #3

    Default Re: WW1 German Issued Bergman Bayard

    Bergman Bayard
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    "As long as there are brave men and warriors the halls of Valhalla will never be silent or empty"

    In memory of my father William T. Grist December 26, 1920--September 10, 2009..
    901st. Ordnance H.A.M. North Africa, Italy, Southern France....ETO
    Also in memory of my mother Jane Kidd Grist Feb. 22, 1920-- September 27, 2009... WWll War bride May 1942...

  4. #4
    ?

    Default Re: WW1 German Issued Bergman Bayard

    You mention that the markings are for a WWI German Medical unit ("L.S.K.16.34."). What does the LSK stand for? I have seen two other Bergman-Bayards with this same marking, but neither had any German military acceptance marks. One author of an article on Bergmann-Bayards believes this marking is from a Greek police contract. Any more info?

  5. #5

    Default Re: WW1 German Issued Bergman Bayard

    Quote by gmkmd View Post
    You mention that the markings are for a WWI German Medical unit ("L.S.K.16.34."). What does the LSK stand for? I have seen two other Bergman-Bayards with this same marking, but neither had any German military acceptance marks. One author of an article on Bergmann-Bayards believes this marking is from a Greek police contract. Any more info?
    L.S.K. Identified by German Imperial Unit researcher Klaus Schad. In Jan Still's book CENTRAL POWERS PISTOLS Page 253 ..L.S.K.16.34 Landwher Sanitaets Kompanie Nr.16 Waffe No. 34.. Pistol was found with German manufactured Bergman Bayard Holster.. Please post the information on the Greek contract Bergman Bayards it would be of great interest to the members of NAPCA... BILL
    Last edited by Bill Grist; 11-12-2008 at 09:42 PM.
    "As long as there are brave men and warriors the halls of Valhalla will never be silent or empty"

    In memory of my father William T. Grist December 26, 1920--September 10, 2009..
    901st. Ordnance H.A.M. North Africa, Italy, Southern France....ETO
    Also in memory of my mother Jane Kidd Grist Feb. 22, 1920-- September 27, 2009... WWll War bride May 1942...

  6. #6
    ?

    Default Re: WW1 German Issued Bergman Bayard

    I'll look the article up and post the info. Does yours have any German army acceptance marks? I would think that would be a sine qua non for an issued weapon.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: WW1 German Issued Bergman Bayard

    James B. Stewart wrote an excellent article in Gun Digest 1973, entitled "Bergmann System Military Pistols". He notes,

    "Sometime during 1912 or 1913 a very small quantity of the M1910 type were delivered to Greece for testing. The Greeks did not adopt this arm and the fate of the test pieces is unknown. Several examples in the proper serial number range have been found wit the inscription "L.Sk. 16." followed by another two-digit number stamped on the front grip strap. These may have been Greek test pieces or the marking may indicate some police usage. Several countries bought small quantities of the Bergmann-Bayard for issue to their police forces...".

    The other Bergmann-Bayards with this marking that I have seen did indeed have "L.S.K.16." followed by another number (as does yours) on the front grip strap. The only difference from Stewart's description is that his text reads "L.Sk.16.", rather than "L.S.K.16.", but I believe this is likely merely a typo. His speculation that these guns are from the Greek trials is based on the serial number range of specimens examined with the "L.S.K." marking, rather than any suggestion as to what "L.S.K." actually stands for.

    I find Still's explanation for these markings a bit weak. Yes, if the "L.S.K." marking were on an arm issued by the Imperial German Army, then the expert on Imperial German markings would be the best interpreter of those markings. But just because an abbreviated marking could make sense in German doesn't mean that it is indeed German. Many other countries and organizations used a similar format in marking weapons.

    Isn't it highly unlikely that a batch of foreign pistols, whether captured or purchased, would have gone through the armorer to be unit stamped, and then issued to a unit of troops, without ever being stamped with a single Imperial German Army acceptance marking? I think it makes more sense to infer that these guns, and the "L.S.K.16." marking are not German at all.

  8. #8
    ?

    Default Re: WW1 German Issued Bergman Bayard

    Of course, Stewart's explanation is also rather weak. Regarding Greek usage, the letters "L.S.K." do not appear in the Greek alphabet. As to these pistols being "... in the proper serial number range...", he does not mention what that range supposedly is. The M1910 Bergmann-Bayard with "L.S.K." markings pictured in Still's book (and here) is in the 11,000 serial number block, yet my example is in the 1,000 serial number block. If these guns were all from one contract, it would seem to be far more than just "test pieces".
    Furthermore, mine is marked "L.S.K.16.17.", so the last two digits, if they are indeed a waffe number, clearly do not follow the serialization. Hopefully more examples with this marking will come to light so that more information can be garnered from them.

  9. #9

    Default Re: WW1 German Issued Bergman Bayard

    The events concerning the Greek trials of Bergman-Bayard pistols are a bit obscure and faint. As a couple of these fine pistols exist in the Saroglou Collection of the War Museum in Athens, Greece, i pressume that these are maybe the weapons of the trials, not excluding the chance that Petros Saroglou, had them privately purchased, as he did with numerous other fine guns, donating all his collection to the Greek State. Anyhow the story is that the weapons if adopted by the Greek Army were never delivered because WWI broke. Apart from these, all Greek weapons bore the greek letters Ε Σ (Epsilon Sigma) - [H]Ellinikos Stratos, that is Greek Army, or the Great Greek Seal or Saint George fighting the dragon.
    Regards, Thanos

  10. #10

    Default Re: WW1 German Issued Bergman Bayard

    Quote by gmkmd View Post
    James B. Stewart wrote an excellent article in Gun Digest 1973, entitled "Bergmann System Military Pistols". He notes,

    I find Still's explanation for these markings a bit weak. Yes, if the "L.S.K." marking were on an arm issued by the Imperial German Army, then the expert on Imperial German markings would be the best interpreter of those markings. But just because an abbreviated marking could make sense in German doesn't mean that it is indeed German. Many other countries and organizations used a similar format in marking weapons.

    Isn't it highly unlikely that a batch of foreign pistols, whether captured or purchased, would have gone through the armorer to be unit stamped, and then issued to a unit of troops, without ever being stamped with a single Imperial German Army acceptance marking? I think it makes more sense to infer that these guns, and the "L.S.K.16." marking are not German at all.
    The unit marking is actually, in location and pattern, Imperial German. The Austrians used a similar pattern of marking on their pistols but placed the markings either on the side of the frame or on a identity disc set into the grip panel.

    Imperial military acceptance marks were only placed on weapons at the factory at the time of manufacture. Other unit marked Bergman Bayards have been noted and none had acceptance stamps.

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