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German helmet ?

Article about: Greetings to all, I received this helmet as a gift, I found no markings on this helmet. What is your opinion on this helmet. Thank you skip

  1. #11

    Default Re: German helmet ?

    It is indeed a Spanish Model "Z 42". Used by the Guardia Civil (a kind of Gendarmerie) in grey. The Policia Armada (riot control troops) used them in grey as well.

    Army helmets were olive coloured. Most helmets have a bracket up front, not this one! Nice.

    A later version, with a more elaborate liner, was called Z42/79.

    Cheers,
    Emile
    Last edited by emileverbunt; 12-07-2011 at 03:49 PM.

  2. #12

    Default Re: German helmet ?

    The Larger Rivets have Been added I think to give it that German look they wouldn't normally be present with the smaller rivets with this liner set-up and i suspect the spot welded badge bracket has been removed and tidied up pre re-paint.

    Phill

  3. #13

    Default Re: German helmet ?

    Quote by WOODSNAKE View Post
    The Larger Rivets have Been added I think to give it that German look they wouldn't normally be present with the smaller rivets with this liner set-up and i suspect the spot welded badge bracket has been removed and tidied up pre re-paint.

    Phill
    The rivets are indeed genuine to the helmet, The paint looks original to me.
    I think maybe this model just didn't have the badge bracket.

  4. #14

    Default Re: German helmet ?

    I agree with woodsnake. The large rivets are not original to the helmet.
    At least not as a rule. I have to be carefull not to state my opnion too vehemently as exceptions are the rule in our field of collecting!!
    The bracket might simply never have been applied. Who knows?

    Have a look at Joseba's invaluable site: ESPAŅOL Z 42

    Cheers,
    Emile

  5. #15

    Default Re: German helmet ?

    This is the small collection I have started. (I know the flag is wrong, but works). The US helmet
    is not time period, I'm convinced it is a German helmet from the 60's, the rank was just added to it.
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    Last edited by skippyroo1; 12-07-2011 at 05:57 PM.

  6. #16

    Default Re: German helmet ?

    Quote by emileverbunt View Post
    I agree with woodsnake. The large rivets are not original to the helmet.
    At least not as a rule. I have to be carefull not to state my opnion too vehemently as exceptions are the rule in our field of collecting!!
    The bracket might simply never have been applied. Who knows?

    Have a look at Joseba's invaluable site: ESPAŅOL Z 42

    Cheers,
    Emile
    Ok, Woodsnake and emileverbunt have got me thinking. I believe they are right.
    I made some new pics of the concerning areas. The big rivets seam to be of aluminum and the small rivets brass. On the inside of the helmet the rivet ends seam all alike.

    I also made a mistake with the inside color of the helmet, depending on how the light shines inside, it gives a dark brown effect, but it does seam the the actual color is a very very dark (like olive or tan green), which gives this brown effect.

    Further more a had a good look at the section were the badge holder would have
    been on the front part of the helmet. It looks like as if it had been worked on. The
    area were the badge would have been is smooth compared to the rest of the helmet which is a slight rough texture and I believe to see orange color of a primer of some sort around this area.

    I never noticed this because I didn't know that this helmet had a badge holder infact I didn't know what helmet it was, till I posted it.

    As for the gray color, well I don't know any more if it is the original coating or not, since the inside is of a green.

    Let me know what you think

    Thank you
    skip
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  7. #17

    Default Re: German helmet ?

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ID:	275676Gday Skip I owned one of these Lids for years and i think it is as i said earlier, the original colour is whats inside the rest is not original, but hey if you like it that's all that matters as long as you didn't pay a lot of coin for it and were duped by a seller into believing it was genuine, but haveing said that there are a lot of people that sell these things on who don't know the difference themselves.

    Phill

  8. #18

    Default Re: German helmet ?

    Oh bloody hell, leave the room for a day and come back to find everything you know is wrong. OF COURSE it should have a badge bracket on the front - that was a standard fitting for all the Modelo Z at time of manufacture and there is no reason why it should have been removed, even in the post-Franco years when these helmets were still in use. I should have noticed that myself, so thanks to Woodsnake for having the sense to point this out. AND (worse) he is also right about the two large liner pins - I excuse myself slightly because I have definately seen instances of these Modelo Z with apparently non-standard larger rivets. but they are always much flatter and do not resemble (as these do) the German M35 family liner pins.

    I don't think, though, that the paint is necessarily wrong. It appears from your photos to have more in common with Spanish schemes (Navy or Guardia Civil) than German, and the fact that the interior shows traces of a different scheme is not always a pointer to any skullduggery.

    Anyway, I apologise for having misled you - you do not, alas, have such a good example of the original Modelo Z as I first asserted. And I wasn't even drunk....
    Last edited by Greg Pickersgill; 12-08-2011 at 11:15 AM.

  9. #19

    Default Re: German helmet ?

    Quote by Greg Pickersgill View Post
    Oh bloody hell, leave the room for a day and come back to find everything you know is wrong. OF COURSE it should have a badge bracket on the front - that was a standard fitting for all the Modelo Z at time of manufacture and there is no reason why it should have been removed, even in the post-Franco years when these helmets were still in use. I should have noticed that myself, so thanks to Woodsnake for having the sense to point this out. AND (worse) he is also right about the two large liner pins - I excuse myself slightly because I have definately seen instances of these Modelo Z with apparently non-standard larger rivets. but they are always much flatter and do not resemble (as these do) the German M35 family liner pins.

    I don't think, though, that the paint is necessarily wrong. It appears from your photos to have more in common with Spanish schemes (Navy or Guardia Civil)than German, and the fact that the interior ishows traces of a different scheme is not always a pointer to any skullduggery.

    Anyway, I apologise for having misled you - you do not, alas have such a good example of the original Modelo Z as I first asserted. And I wasn't even drunk....
    Drunk???? Faaark now that ya mention it i mighta been!!!

  10. #20

    Default Re: German helmet ?

    Greetings to all,

    I have after long thoughts and all of your inputs decided to remove the decals and the gray paint. The original dark green color of the helmet came alight. I also found out during the cleaning process that some one had glued aluminum buttons over the two front rivets to give the impression it to be a German helmet, plus the gray paint, false decals and the removal of the front bracket (which can clearly be seen on my pics). Obviously some body wanted to have a German helmet or sell it as a false one. I do not regret having this helmet restored. It was a lot of sweat work, as I used Q-tips so I wouldn't damage the original paint. I will attach a bracket for the eagle.

    Speaking of the eagle, I have researched intensively to find out which pattern is appropriate for the Franco era. There are many different patterns out there. The problem is that I know there are fakes of this eagle and I see different patterns on original Z helmets that I believe are post war patterns, but I can't be sure as the net is not specific. Would any one know what eagle is Franco era. Example the crown slightly lifted up (pic 7) or directly on the eagles head as in pic 8, which I believe could be a modern pattern for the Barrett, but I see this pattern on original Z helmets, this makes it very confusing and miss-leading. The cross style varies so much as does the tail, feet, wings and the head of the eagle on these badges. UUUhhh

    Thank you to you all for your past help.
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