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Royal Navy Air Service Armored Car collar dog: REAL or FAKE?

Article about: Can anyone helf here? Have any prior experience with this badge? Thanks

  1. #1
    Luther
    ?

    Default Royal Navy Air Service Armored Car collar dog: REAL or FAKE?

    Can anyone helf here? Have any prior experience with this badge?

    Thanks
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  2. #2
    ILH
    ILH is offline
    ?

    Default re: Royal Navy Air Service Armored Car collar dog: REAL or FAKE?

    Hi Luther,

    it's a lapel badge (collar dog) for the Royal Navy Air Service, Armoured Car Units, around ww1.

    Very rare badge from a very rare unit- If it is genuine.... Unfortunatley it looks like a restrike to me (could be wrong)- it's a bit off-centre- plenty made in the last 30 years.

  3. #3
    Luther
    ?

    Default re: Royal Navy Air Service Armored Car collar dog: REAL or FAKE?

    That patina, at least on the badge, body looks real. However, copper can be aged with ammonia and other chemicals. You can tell the difference, but not with a photo. Have to see it in person.

    On the obverse there is wear beneath the open fields in front, beneath, and behind the armored car. I also see dings on the high points and some thinning on the highest points of the armored car. Looks ike the cross atop the crown has been dinged back. The point is, the wear, is underneath the patina - it isn't new.

    My concern are those bright shiny attachment loops on the reverse.

    Now, I don't have a problem with replaced loops on a very rare badge - like on an 1813 EK 1, as long as if, the loops have been re-attached, or added new, that it's stated in the description and the item is priced accordingly.

    If it is a repair job, then it's a good one; whoever did it was very clean and didn't get solder everywhere - and isn't that usually the dead giveaway evidence of a repair?

    I've compared this badge to 7 1813 EK 1s with attachment loops on the reverse, as I can find no other Naval Gun Service example - anywhere. Of the 7 EKs (1) has loops with silver oxide on the loops that matches that on the reverse field. This cross was "cased" in paper. The other (6) show dull-grey, toned silver reverse fields with bright, shiny loops or rear field and loops all the same color.

    The detail of this badge is nothing like any of the restrikes that I've found on line. If this one is a restrike/fake, then it's an old one. The reverse detail also seems consistent with my knowledge of British copper badges.

    The badge is not lacquered.

    The color of the highest points on the front devices and lettering matches...and appears, at least to me to be correct. Look how the pebbled texture in front of the armored car is smooth from old wear...and atop sits a consistent patina. This badge has not been burnished recently to similate wear.

    The two attachments are curious. As I said, no soldering residue at base, and there are wear lines and dings - especially the highest point of the one on the right.

    What I am arguing here is what I see on the piece...and if it's a fake, the detail, color and wear on the high points just seems right...damn little shiny rings got to ruin a perfectly good treasure hunt.

    Does anyone out there have mental notes on the wear patterns of copper badges in the "lapel" = collar height/position??

    My exerpience with "lapel" Third Reich badges light the Luftwaffe clasps tells me that they show wear.

    Damn it. Unfortunately, I really like this trinket and want it to be real. Wanting someting as we all know doesn't make it so.

    Consequently, without more definitive proof I'll shy away. Unless someone with more experience than mine gives it their blessing it's no dice.

    I can get it here to the US with a return privilege, but since it's so rare no one knows anything about it really. So what is that going to achieve?

  4. #4
    Luther
    ?

    Default re: Royal Navy Air Service Armored Car collar dog: REAL or FAKE?

    Hello All,

    Well I went online and did a search of cap badges as they are of very similar construction to the lapel badge in question.

    Iíve attached photos of the reverse lugs. As you can see, the color of the lugs runs the gamut. From almost black to bright Ė very similar to the lug color on the Royal Navy Air Service Armored Car lapel badge.

    Virtually all of the badges pictured have a value of less than ₤25, one mid-valued/priced at ₤75 and high-end is one at ₤160 and another ₤180. Both the ₤160 and ₤180 are silver.

    The photos suggest the lug color can be dark or fairly bright copper.

    Iím assuming, of course, that the photos are of genuine examples with no repairs or messing about with.

    The issue remains at to whether the Royal Navy Air Service Armored Car lapel badge is FAKE or REAL?

    Best Regards
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  5. #5
    Luther
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    Default re: Royal Navy Air Service Armored Car collar dog: REAL or FAKE?

    A few more...
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  6. #6
    ?

    Default re: Royal Navy Air Service Armored Car collar dog: REAL or FAKE?

    Hi guys.

    The lugs on the back of my grandfathers capbadge, Grenadier Guards, WW2, issued in 1939 struck before then! are the same as these, and I know that the badge is genuine.

    Will post a reverse view sometime over the weekend.

    Regards etc

    Ian

  7. #7
    Luther
    ?

    Default This Example is a FAKE

    Hello All,

    Received word from someone that knows this lapel badge well. They state it is a COPY/FAKE.

    Definitively a FAKE.

    Best Regards

  8. #8

    Default Re: Royal Navy Air Service Armored Car collar dog: REAL or FAKE?

    Glad that this is confirned. I had real concerns about this, but could not back it up with solid proof.

    Cheers, Ade.

  9. #9
    dartmoor
    ?

    Default Re: Royal Navy Air Service Armored Car collar dog: REAL or FAKE?

    Quote by Luther View Post
    Can anyone helf here? Have any prior experience with this badge?

    Thanks
    Hello Luther,
    I have uploaded two pics of a genuine RNAS badge which I have had since 1958 .The differences I can see are :-
    Background indisdinct , RNAS lettering also , doorhandle below turret missing , detail of crown , distance from back of car to edge of badge . On the reverse the lugs are in a different position compared to the wheels . On the badge I have the right hand lug has been cut short and the left hand lug squashed in and was like this when I swapped it at school when I was 11. I don't think restrikes were around in the fifties so I feel sure that its genuine.
    Regards Keith
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Royal Navy Air Service Armored Car collar dog: REAL or FAKE?

    I just want to add a comment in general, if a badge or collar dog is left on the uniform for an extended length of time it will receive little or no wear, however it will grow dull with age, I have had bi metal Mercury and Crowns on my mess kit and service dress for 25 years and whilst dull, they exhibit no wear at all since the tailor put them there in 1984.
    The badges and awards that are removed often or have not been used officially for many many years will show a different type of wear and have a regular patina overall except on the most prominent of highlights eg the beads around the Royal Crown.
    Food for thought.

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