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a 10yr update on some luftwaffe relics

Article about: About 10 years back ( have I been here that long!! ) I made a thread on the Luftwaffe crash relics I had collected ( and mostly still have ) https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/armou...affe-17621

  1. #1

    Default a 10yr update on some luftwaffe relics

    About 10 years back ( have I been here that long!! ) I made a thread on the Luftwaffe crash relics I had collected ( and mostly still have )
    Relics from the Luftwaffe

    On the last page are some parts from a Ju88 G-6 night fighter. These parts are some of the remains of Ju 88 G-6 which was the night fighter version of the G-1, but fitted with two Jumo 213 A engines. This aircraft crashed in the Teutoburg forest near Osnabruck Germany during the night of 3rd – 4th March 1945 because of low fuel / fuel issues. The crew of 3 safely bailed out. These parts were recovered from the forest floor between 2005 / 2006 by a local detectorist.

    My source at the time who dug the parts told me that it was Ju 88 G-6 werk number 622132 flown by Oberfedwebel Kurt Gabler with Uffz Licht & Ernst as crew.

    a 10yr update on some luftwaffe relics

    But then a member of the forum pointed me to a Dutch study group who had a different story Home
    They had OFW Kurt Gabler crashing in Holland after ‘Operation Gisela’ that night.

    a 10yr update on some luftwaffe relics

    By way of background, Operation Gisela was a German night-fighter intruder operation organised to target British bombers on their way back to England from an attack on Dortmund on the night of 3rd/4th March 1945. For 'Gisela', the Luftwaffe launched about 200 night-fighters to follow the various bomber forces back to England. This offensive took the British defenses largely by surprise and the Germans shot down 24 Allied bombers in a series of attacks over the English coast during the course of the night. By 02:15 the main attacks had occurred and the intruders had spent nearly 2 hours in British airspace.

    Now the flight had to journey back over the sea to Germany and the Netherlands. Of the 200 sent, five Ju 88s had been lost in combat over England, 11 aircraft crashed or were damaged on landing, several Ju 88s were chased out to sea and two were shot down. Two Ju 88s crashed while making ground attacks on targets of opportunity, with 20 Ju88s being lost in total.

    An online record has Gabler’s plane as one of them….
    Junkers Ju 88G-6 Werknummer 622132 I./NJG 4 Crew baled out owing to fuel exhaustion. Ofw K. Gabler injured, rest of crew safe.

    I do like the level of detail in the Dutch study group's report but I do find a few things puzzling. I have read that I/NJG 4 was based in Vechta ( southwest of Bremen ) from 11/44 to 3/45 but if they did indeed participate in Operation Gisela as the record indicates and were returning there but at 0245 the plane was abandoned because of low fuel over Berensbruck ( in Germany but 20km to the southwest of the airfield ), WHY and HOW did it then seemingly about face and travel back 150kms southwest into Holland to eventually crash at Zuidloo??? It seems impossible that an unmanned, out of fuel plane could travel that far.

    Here are some facts -

    The flight left English airspace around 2.15am and the aircraft was abandoned at 2.45am ( 30 min later ) and the Dutch Group say it crashed at 3.30am ( 45 min later )

    The straight line distance from Berensbruck to Zuidloo is 150km – therefore it would have to be flying at 200kph but unmanned and with low or no fuel ??
    And considering the stall speed of a JU88 is 145kph… how could that 45min flight be sustained?........... I believe it couldn’t have.

    Additionally, while the record seem to be reliable as they are based on the 'flugbuch' from one of the crew members (Uffz. Ernst) he would only have known what the mission was, where they flew from, to and where they parachuted out …. he would NOT have known where the plane ended up!!



    Here then is MY scenario…

    They did indeed participate in Operation Gisela and were returning to their base at Vechta – the aircraft was over the North sea having passed the English coast around 2.00am and 45min later ( at "get outta here" speed of 450kph ) were back within 20km of the Vechta airfield when the fuel finally ran out and the order was given to abandon the plane over Bersenbrucke in the pitch dark.
    As the airmen drifted to earth, the plane slowly banked to the right and took a south heading for about 20km and crashed into the dense Teutoburg forest south of Osnabruck.

    The Holland crash at 3.30am on March 4th was another JU88.... and the werk number came from a police report at the time ( easily mistaken )

    So, am I and my finder correct ? ( I have long since lost communication with them sadly ) or is the "official" report correct?

    Love to hear your thoughts.
    Cheers, Dan
    Last edited by Danmark; 10-21-2024 at 08:00 AM.
    " I'm putting off procrastination until next week "

  2. #2

    Default

    44 views and a handful of likes ....... thanks fellas - I guess that's a tacit agreement that my theory holds water?
    " I'm putting off procrastination until next week "

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote by Danmark View Post
    44 views and a handful of likes ....... thanks fellas - I guess that's a tacit agreement that my theory holds water?
    I agree with your hypothesis. I dug a site with a similar background story (i.e Mine was a USAAF bomber that crashed miles from where it was "supposed to be" due to it being unmanned and out of fuel). The explanation I came up with at the time was that as each engine in turn became starved of fuel any "flight path" would have been subject to deviation. Subsequently I got access to crash site pictures, which clearly showed the bomber had broken up in the air before coming down in woodland.

    I agree that your Ju88 is unlikely to have remained in the air for 45 minutes without a pilot.

  4. #4

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    Hi there, in researching the fate of my grandfather, Oberfeldwebel Hans Henjes, I stumbled across your post re a JU88 found in the Teutoburg Forest. I recently received records that state his plane JU88 went missing over the Teutoburg Forest on March 27/28,1945. I believe he was a pilot in II./NJG 4, I think I’ve narrowed that down to Vechta airfield. There does seem to be some sort of grid notation on his KARTE, maybe identifying a possible crash site from a map? U83SS However little else is known. Any chance you are familiar with this crash? And if so, I would be very eager to hear about it. Or is there a possibility that you stumbled across his plane and not the missing one from Operation Gisela? I very much look forward to hearing from you. Thank you in advance.

  5. #5

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    Quote by Sireland View Post
    Hi there, in researching the fate of my grandfather, Oberfeldwebel Hans Henjes, I stumbled across your post re a JU88 found in the Teutoburg Forest. I recently received records that state his plane JU88 went missing over the Teutoburg Forest on March 27/28,1945. I believe he was a pilot in II./NJG 4, I think I’ve narrowed that down to Vechta airfield. There does seem to be some sort of grid notation on his KARTE, maybe identifying a possible crash site from a map? U83SS However little else is known. Any chance you are familiar with this crash? And if so, I would be very eager to hear about it. Or is there a possibility that you stumbled across his plane and not the missing one from Operation Gisela? I very much look forward to hearing from you. Thank you in advance.
    Hello, thanks for reading my old thread. It was a long time ago and as I said in the post, I have lost contact with the person who lived locally and found the wreck - but I am sure it is the Gabler JU88 as he told me he had a data plate with his werknummer on it - positive proof he said. ......Note that I live in Australia so am a LONG way from the place to go and double check!

    The Teutoburg forest is a vast area - 4,000 sqkm - so big that the Germanic tribes wiped out 3 Roman Legions there in the 1st century AD so I'm sure there are many wrecks still to be found.

    Good luck in your ongoing search.....regards, Dan
    " I'm putting off procrastination until next week "

  6. #6
    MAP
    MAP is online now
    ?

    Default

    Never saw this originally but a great thread.
    "Please", Thank You" and proper manners appreciated

    My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them

    "Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)

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