German shell case 2.5cm. What nationality was the weapon.

[LUCKYSTRIKE]

At a French car boot sale this summer near Liseux Normandy, I was lucky enough to find this interesting and unusual German shell case that's Waffenampt marked. This cost me just 3 euro's a bargain.
The base is marked LUM.S then the usual German Eagle stamp with a tiny number. Then there's 43 (for 1943) & 1b for the shell case metal content and finally 2,5cmH. This is an unusual calibre because I thought most WW2 German ordinance is marked in mm.
Returning home and checking my reference books I could only find one reference to this calibre in German use and that was for a French 2,5cm anti tank gun that was mounted on a Panhard chassis in use by the SS called a Panzerspahwagen P204(f). Of the 190 produced most were destroyed on the Eastern Front, so very few were left by June 1944 and it was unlikely any were available for Normandy. Now from memory I thought that foreign weapons in German use had the shells marked with the first letter of the Country of origin, an example being (f) for France. But this shell is marked with an (H) so I wonder could this be for Hungary?
I’ve been unable to find out more but perhaps the collective knowledge of the forum can help identfy it for me.
The gas mask canister is just to show the scale.
Thank You.
Luckystrike

[Harry Morant]

Not a real common calibre for that vintage: I believe one of the following is the french one you're referring to:

2.5 cm PAK 112 (f) (ex-french M-34, the satandard AT gun of the French Army at the outbreak of the war)

2.5 cm PAK 113 (f) (ex-french M-37 Buil by Puteaux and lighter than the M-34, but with similar performance)

[Hosa]

The shellcase for the guns Harry is refering to is 193 mm long and has a rim.

This here is a shellcase for the French 25 mm canon C.A. Modele 1938, 1939 or 1940, which was an automatic, 10 shot magazin feed, anti-aircraft canon, made by Hotchkiss i think.
Length of the case: 163.5 mm
Base: 42 mm in diameter

The shellcase is produced in france, by a factory in Montrieul, in 1943.
"1b" is probably a code for the batch number and amount produced: batch 1, b= 2000.

It's true that the germans added the first letter of the name of the country the gun came from.
But it seems like this one was an exception.
From what i've heard , the germans named this gun "2,5 cm Flak Hotchkiss 38", so it might well be that the "H" actually stands for "Hotchkiss".

Nice find, if you ever grow tired of it, send me a pm.

[LUCKYSTRIKE]

Hi Hosa,
Thats great thank you so much for your detailed reply. The dimensions you quote are perfect, I've just measured the shell case and its exactly 163.5mm long by 42mm base. Thats superb and you even gave a reasonable explaination of the H for Hotchkiss.
I knew someone from the forum would know the answer.
I'm not tired of it yet but if I do I'll remember you.
Best Wishes.
Luckystrike.

[edrob357]

I got three of them in a car boot sale in Caen last week if you are still looking for a copy of this shell casing. All mine appear to be manufactured after 1940 in France but don't have the German headstamps, only the French ones. I know this thread is well old but if you're still interested, let me know.

[kz11gr]

Hi

Some informations about this ammo
This is a french 25mm anti aircraft case .
Used by the german army, italian, romanian.

This one has no waffenamt but prhaps for the french vichy army.

The cases under german control are stamped "2,5 cm ..."
But other do not have this "2,5 cm" .
German cases may be made with steel.
Other cases may have a waffenamt and are not stamped with "2,5 cm" ... etc ...

some pictures found on a french forum :







regards

[LUCKYSTRIKE]

Hi Kz11gr,
Thanks for this additional information all very much appreciated and for posting the pictures. It never ceases to amaze me the collective knowledge held by the members of this forum.
All the best
LUCKYSTRIKE

[kz11gr]

Thank you

Some pictures more :

the gun :

[LUCKYSTRIKE]

Thank you for the pics of the weapon, I'm going to print one out to put with the shell case. Do you know which museum the final picture of the gun was taken? Maybe I can visit it one day.
Thanks again.
LUCKYSTRIKE

[kz11gr]

Thank you for the pics of the weapon, I'm going to print one out to put with the shell case. Do you know which museum the final picture of the gun was taken? Maybe I can visit it one day.
Thanks again.
LUCKYSTRIKE

Hi LUCKYSTRIKE


===================
From here :
File:Hotchkiss 25 mm CA mle 39 Saumur 02.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

========================











************** other links ***********

musee saumur artillerie - Google Images

************** in english *********

Euro-T-Guide - What to see - France - Tank Museum Saumur - 1

******************************

***********