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8 that were overrun

Article about: Hello people, havent posted on this forum for a while. Hope all of you are doing well! I dont have all the photos since ive filmed most of the dig, when i make the video i will post the link

  1. #21

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    [QUOTE=As a scientist I would for instance certainly not share videos or pictures of the fallen over social media.
    Best, Jan[/QUOTE]


    And why not? Recovery of the remains of the fallen is aired on terrestrial television, so what is the difference? These men are given a proper burial with a proper headstone, and surely that is better than lying in some unmarked plot.

    Cheers,
    Steve

  2. #22
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    Quote by Jan View Post
    In May 2019 here in Finland it is! Exhuming six forgotten soldiers graves is very much part of a scientific WW2 conflict archaeology project. There are many ethical issues to consider when practising forensic "soldier recovery".

    As a scientist I would for instance certainly not share videos or pictures of the fallen over social media.

    Best, Jan
    I ve seen what you guys do in Finland,good stuff! What kind of funding do you guys have?
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Military-archeology-Legenda-Latvia/224779244335847

    http://www.hobbyhistorica.com/

  3. #23

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    Germans call it "centralising. Every gravesite that exists in Croatia (graveyards and mass graves) WILL be exhumed and transfered to one of the 2 main german war cementaries. We have about 25-30000 german soldiers still all around Croatia, 14000 executed only from the battle of Knin, on about a 40km stretch in various mass graves from 1 to 500 persons.
    I personaly wouldnt touch the graveyards only the mass graves but everything needs to be moved.

  4. #24

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    So can someone explain the process whereby one of these recoveries is undertaken. Is it requested by the soldiers families, or does someone just decide they'd like to look for graves? Secondly are these recovery diggers, volunteers or do they have some official status with the government of the country they are working?
    Why are the relics removed from the grave site, rather than re-inturned with the bones at whatever official grave site they are moved to?
    I guess some on the outside have a suspicion, perhaps unfairly, that the motivation for the recoveries is less about finding MIA's and closure for families, and more about access to relic helmets, belt buckles, combat badges etc. In other words objects that could be sold for financial gain. Hopefully that's not the case.

  5. #25

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    I am not going to get into the why this takes place, but for me one of the mantra's of professional archaeology is that it is done to the highest standards, with meticulous recording and the use of proper excavation techniques.
    All artifacts, whether human remains or to a lesser extent the other finds should be properly cleaned insitu as they form part of the history of the grave and only after proper recording including drawn and/or digital plans, detailed photography and then using a careful collection strategy using proper skeleton recording sheets and then industry standard retrieval and storage of the remains can then take place.
    Regards,

    Jerry

    Whatever its just an opinion.

  6. #26
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    Quote by Jerry B View Post
    I am not going to get into the why this takes place, but for me one of the mantra's of professional archaeology is that it is done to the highest standards, with meticulous recording and the use of proper excavation techniques.
    All artifacts, whether human remains or to a lesser extent the other finds should be properly cleaned insitu as they form part of the history of the grave and only after proper recording including drawn and/or digital plans, detailed photography and then using a careful collection strategy using proper skeleton recording sheets and then industry standard retrieval and storage of the remains can then take place.
    Who would fund such an undertaking? Proffessional archaeologists doing this work would want to be paid by the hour I imagine, and with hundreds of thousands fallen soldiers laying there waiting for "black diggers" to loot them they would surely get to the bodies before the war grave commissions and the recovery teams (who mostly do this work unpaid)..
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Military-archeology-Legenda-Latvia/224779244335847

    http://www.hobbyhistorica.com/

  7. #27

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    I have no experience or knowledge in this matter BUT I’ve found this particular thread massively interesting and thought provoking – so, for starters, thank you all. There are clearly a number of ways this issue can be addressed…..but I’m unable to find one which would be acceptable to everyone, including me.

    If it was in my garden – I think I’d feel like respecting their resting place
    If it was in my garden…but the guys had killed my grandfather – I might not want them there
    If I was an opposing combatant – I think I’d want nothing to do with it
    If I was a hard-nosed collector - I’d dig around them to get what I could and possibly fill in the holes
    If I was a fellow soldier – I think I’d either want them left where they were and marked OR taken, with respect, to be with their brothers
    If I was a Govt. Minister (either side) – I’d probably be concerned about funding the dead when the living probably don’t have enough as it is
    If I was a historian / archaeologist – I’d have laid down rules / processes to follow which presumably involves mapping, recording, careful removal etc. (which requires necessary funding and time)
    If I was a youth - I’d get the skulls and the helmets and run off
    If I was a property developer – I’d want no-one (dead or alive) to get in the way of my new estate
    If I was a Council road builder – I’d be delighted that something has halted my work for a few days allowing me to take it easy for a couple of days whilst “they” (?) sort things out
    If I was a small child – I’d be frightened of the ghosts in the garden
    If I was a relative – I’d want them “home”

    ……..’not sure what the answer is but the situation has really made me think. I guess, in an ideal world the relatives would have the last say…..after all, who are we to decide…..

  8. #28
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    I think this inscription in a book on a War Cemetery in Latvia is a reason many of us involved in soldier recovery spend our own time and money doing this work

    8 that were overrun
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Military-archeology-Legenda-Latvia/224779244335847

    http://www.hobbyhistorica.com/

  9. #29
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    Interesting responses, I think we can all agree there is wide spectrum of reasons and motivations for these kinds of exhumations. Overall though, outside of official sanctioned groups, I find this activity somewhat distasteful and questionable.

    That being said, official and approved archaeological activity is a different level again, encouraging historical study and knowledge of past events, battles and sacrifices made.

  10. #30

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    At the end of the day, these are exhumations for the purpose of re-burial.
    It's just not realistic or necessary to approach them as archaeological excavations or forensic investigations, especially considering the vast overall scale of these ongoing operations. (So far, the mortal remains of 910,293 fallen have been transferred to 83 war cemeteries.)

    As for the reason, let me quote from the Volksbund's website:

    "Um die Gräber dauerhaft zu erhalten, wie es die Kriegsgräberabkommen mit anderen Nationen vorsehen, ist es notwendig, die vielen kleinen Grablagen, insbesondere die des Zweiten Weltkrieges, aufzulösen und in zentrale Kriegsgräberstätten umzubetten."

    [In order to retain these graves in perpetuity - as is provided in the war graves treaties with other nations - it is necessary to disband the many small burial sites, particularly those of the Second World War, and to undertake their transfer to the central war cemeteries.]

    I , for one, salute and support these efforts. (I make financial contributions to the Volksbund.)

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