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Battlefields in North Karelia( SS-Nord Division)

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  1. #1521
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    I have not seen this thread before, and I must confess that my initial amazement (at the quantity and preservation of the items), quickly turned to irritation, discomfort and doubt.
    The jumbled skulls and bones struck me as very wrong (from an archeological point of view), but items such as the rings and engraved wristwatch are all potentially vital evidence in identification of the fallen.
    I could not continue to view these pages beyond the first three, so I am perhaps doing the digger a disservice, but I for one am very uncomfortable with the methods and motivation employed here. Perhaps, buried within the subsequent pages, there is a full and reassuring explanation of the procedures used - and evidence there of - but I cannot approve of, or trust, what I have thus far seen.
    Last edited by Kohima; 06-03-2020 at 01:20 PM.

  2. #1522

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    Kohima,

    I'm afraid the code of conduct that we work under is not the same world over, that does not necessarily mean people are bad though.

    Just imagine trying to present a lecture on this at the CIFA or Society of Antiquaries!

  3. #1523

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    Quote by Kohima View Post
    I have not seen this thread before, and I must confess that my initial amazement (at the quantity and preservation of the items), quickly turned to irritation, discomfort and doubt.
    The jumbled skulls and bones struck me as very wrong (from an archeological point of view), but items such as the rings and engraved wristwatch are all vital evidence in identification of the fallen.
    I could not continue to view these pages beyond the first three, so I am perhaps doing the digger a disservice, but I for one am very uncomfortable with the methods and motivation employed here. Perhaps, buried within subsequent pages, there is a full and reassuring explanation of the procedures used - and evidence there of - but I do not approve of, or trust, what I have thus far seen.
    Some valid comment there.

    I think that to put it in a nutshell;

    1. Items associated with a burial (formal or as a result of combat action) are,

    a. Potential evidence assisting in identification.
    b. Once the ID process (positive or negative) is complete, historical artifacts which depending on significance should be treated as such. With the caveat that if any personal effects can be attributed to an individual where possible they should be returned to the estate of that individual.

    2. Items not associated with a casualty are historical artifacts therefore point 1 above will not apply and point 2 may be relevant in part in certain circumstances.

    Whatever the circumstances all such items should be accorded the same level of dilligence and respect as would any prehistoric/ medieval etc finds.

    Any failure to treat with respect the dead of battle from any force or nation is totally unacceptable on many levels not just historical and is a scourge on our hobby sometimes causing the ignorant to "tar us all with the same brush".

    Voltaire said "To the living we owe respect, to the dead we owe the truth"

    I would counter that the dead are owed both.

    Regards

    Mark
    Last edited by Watchdog; 06-03-2020 at 01:35 PM. Reason: Typo
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

  4. #1524
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    Quote by Kohima View Post
    I have not seen this thread before, and I must confess that my initial amazement (at the quantity and preservation of the items), quickly turned to irritation, discomfort and doubt.
    The jumbled skulls and bones struck me as very wrong (from an archeological point of view), but items such as the rings and engraved wristwatch are all potentially vital evidence in identification of the fallen.
    I could not continue to view these pages beyond the first three, so I am perhaps doing the digger a disservice, but I for one am very uncomfortable with the methods and motivation employed here. Perhaps, buried within the subsequent pages, there is a full and reassuring explanation of the procedures used - and evidence there of - but I cannot approve of, or trust, what I have thus far seen.
    These issues have been discussed many times on this forum and in this thread , only those who are operating within strict guidelines laid down by the forum admin and having proved that they are working with the permissions of and in conjunction with the Russian war Graves and the German Volksbund are allowed to post their results . If you had read on ( i do appreciate this is a very long thread ) you would have seen that you are far from the first to raise concerns and as i have said we have strict guidlines here , so called Black Diggers are not welcome here and are banned immediately .

    - - ------- - -

    Quote by Kohima View Post
    I have not seen this thread before, and I must confess that my initial amazement (at the quantity and preservation of the items), quickly turned to irritation, discomfort and doubt.
    The jumbled skulls and bones struck me as very wrong (from an archeological point of view), but items such as the rings and engraved wristwatch are all potentially vital evidence in identification of the fallen.
    I could not continue to view these pages beyond the first three, so I am perhaps doing the digger a disservice, but I for one am very uncomfortable with the methods and motivation employed here. Perhaps, buried within the subsequent pages, there is a full and reassuring explanation of the procedures used - and evidence there of - but I cannot approve of, or trust, what I have thus far seen.
    These issues have been discussed many times on this forum and in this thread , only those who are operating within strict guidelines laid down by the forum admin and having proved that they are working with the permissions of and in conjunction with the Russian war Graves and the German Volksbund are allowed to post their results . If you had read on ( i do appreciate this is a very long thread ) you would have seen that you are far from the first to raise concerns and as i have said we have strict guidlines here , so called Black Diggers are not welcome here and are banned immediately .
    The gates of hell were opened and we accepted the invitation to enter" 26/880 Lance Sgt, Edward Dyke. 26th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers , ( 3rd Tyneside Irish )

    1st July 1916

    Thought shall be the harder , heart the keener,
    Courage the greater as our strength faileth.
    Here lies our leader ,in the dust of his greatness.
    Who leaves him now , be damned forever.
    We who are old now shall not leave this Battle,
    But lie at his feet , in the dust with our leader

    House Carles at the Battle of Hastings

  5. #1525
    ?
    The gates of hell were opened and we accepted the invitation to enter" 26/880 Lance Sgt, Edward Dyke. 26th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers , ( 3rd Tyneside Irish )

    1st July 1916

    Thought shall be the harder , heart the keener,
    Courage the greater as our strength faileth.
    Here lies our leader ,in the dust of his greatness.
    Who leaves him now , be damned forever.
    We who are old now shall not leave this Battle,
    But lie at his feet , in the dust with our leader

    House Carles at the Battle of Hastings

  6. #1526

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    I've said it before, I'll say it again. This is the most fantastic thread on this site! I've never seen so many outstanding finds before.

    Do you ever get bored of finding "common" stuff, like bullet casings and the like? Here in the states I have not found enough "cool stuff" to get bored over common things.

    I know you sell helmets, and I almost feel rude asking, but if you would like to offload some bullet casings, or something small and "insignificant", I could help. I would like to own just one neat thing from where these guys fought.

  7. #1527

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    Quote by Scout View Post
    The 6th SS Mountain Division "Nord" was a German unit of the Waffen SS during World War II, formed in February 1941 as SS Kampfgruppe Nord (SS Battle Group North).

    The Division was the only Waffen SS unit to fight in the Arctic Circle when it was stationed in Finland and northern Russia between June and November 1941. It fought in Karelia until the Finnish armistice in September 1944 when it marched on foot 1,600 km through Finland and Norway. It arrived in Denmark in December and then transferred to western Germany. It fought in the Nordwind offensive in January 1945, where it suffered heavy losses and surrendered to the American forces in Austria at the end of the war.

    Bill Ts excellent pic of Matthias Kleinheisterkamp, who was leading 'NORD' until late '43

    Wonder who made his collar tabs. Those definitely do not fit the foot print of the slight bent oak leaf. If I did not see this with my own eyes and then saw a loose collar tab set similar to these I'd think reproduction. Amazing!

  8. #1528

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    ...in oktober 1942 he god some probs with Himmler himself, trinking to much alcohol and so on:

    Am 9. Oktober 1942 erhielt er durch den Reichsführer SS eine briefliche Rüge wegen seines exzessiven Alkoholkonsums und der Schikanierung Untergebener. Wörtlich schrieb Himmler u. a.: „Ich erwarte von Ihnen, dass Sie in den nächsten zwei Jahren keinen Alkohol mehr trinken, nachdem Sie im Alter von 49 Jahren noch nicht fähig sind, damit umzugehen.“ Obwohl Kleinheisterkamp dicht vor seiner Ablösung stand, blieb er Divisionskommandeur.

    But they hold him on duty.

  9. #1529

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    After watching the movie on You Tube, "The Unknown Soldier" the relevance of this thread became one to me of important historical significance let alone one of understanding the sheer terror the combatants went through to survive.

    Those unlucky souls who did not survive but remains have been found are reinterred with their band of brothers. That's how it should be, no one is left behind.

    This is not a perfect world we live in by any means but those who discover their remains & work towards reinternment should be applauded for what they do. Those who do not follow ethical treatment will be visited by karma or bad juju sometime in their lives and that's how it should be too.
    Last edited by Rich Moran; 11-05-2021 at 04:00 AM.

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