French dress bayonet frog

[Kilian]

I would like to share a French dress bayonet frog in "buffle blanc" that I acquired some years ago, in an unused "new old stock" state.






On the back there is a very, very faint makers mark for Henri Brun Clermont-Ferrand.

I have been unable to find much info on the maker, other than that he made stuff for the military, gendarmerie and customs (douane), such as pistol holsters and that he was probably active from pre-WW2 until the 1960's or 70's. I've seen the maker marked as Ets (for Etablissements) Henri Brun Clermont-Ferrand and as simply Henri Brun Clermont-Ferrand. The latter mark seems to be later. I cannot make out if my frog is stamped with or without Ets. The condition and smell point to pre-WW2 manufacture, it is not newly made.

I found it not easy to identify the model and I am still not 100% sure. Some internet sources call it M1874, some talk about 3rd republic (which is from the Franco Prussian War until WW2) but all seem to agree it was for the Gendarmerie and the Republican Guard.

One source, which I tend to believe, is a description I found on geraldbaios.fr. My French is not very good, but I understand it is a model that was introduced in 1923 for the Gendarmerie, with the metal fittings in German Silver. In 1927 it was introduced for the Republican Guard of Paris, with the fittings in copper. That would mean my frog was intended for the Republican Guard.

As you can see in my last picture, it has quite an impressive size.

Maybe some of our (French, or French speaking?) members can confirm, correct or complement my info on model or maker?

[Sleepwalker]

Hello,

this ist a Porte Baionnette modele 1923-27 for the Garde républicaine de Paris for the ’épée-baïonnette M-1886 or (since 1934) for the sabre-baïonnette M-1892.
This is not a dress bayonet frog.

This is quite easy to recognize by the color of the metal parts. They are made of copper to better match the uniform.

The Gendamiere model 1923-25 or 1923-27 has metal parts made of nickel silver.

Regards

[Kilian]

Thanks. You basically confirm what I had found here Les porte-fourreaux francais – Geraldbaios

We can argue about dress frog. It is described as a frog for the “grande tenue”.

Do you have a different source than the one I found?

[AndyB]

I believe the hangers are brass made as in french link, anyway it was painted here.Note the rand area of picture 3.

[Sleepwalker]

Hello.

That looks a lot like copper to me. Oxide layer was removed (I would also strongly recommend). There's still some verdigris left.

Regards

[Sleepwalker]

Thanks. You basically confirm what I had found here Les porte-fourreaux francais – Geraldbaios

We can argue about dress frog. It is described as a frog for the “grande tenue”.

Do you have a different source than the one I found?

Hello,

- Carter, Bayonet and Beltfrogs Part 1-3.

- Mouret/Mery, Les porte-baionnettes de l'Armée francaise

[AndyB]

Personally i believe that wire is brass was copper coated and black painted. Note the yellow color under.

[Kilian]

I believe I have a few more close ups on my laptop, but I won’t be able to check that until later tonight.

The black stuff is not paint, but some sort of dirt/corrosion product. I did not clean it as I did not want to foul the buffle blanc.

I am not sure what the original material of the fittings was. The red metal we see today is copper (cuivre in French) without a doubt. But it has a very dull/matt surface and by the looks of it, it may have become brittle. That could be caused by brass (laiton in French) that has become subject to dezincification, but on the other hand the red is quite evenly spread. Brass suffering from dezincification, as I have seen that, usually has a more spotted appearance. I’ll have a closer look later.

I acquired the frog maybe ten years ago from a lady in Eindhoven, The Netherlands. She had a couple of these. I would not qualify her as a high end militaria dealer. She had a small trade in all sort of goods in a backroom in her house. Sometimes militaria, but not exclusively. The sort of person who would buy things on rural antique markets while on holiday in France and then sell that at a profit when back home. I paid 25 Euros, if I remember correctly. And it appears that around that time a small stack of old stock had surfaced. These now have found new owners and they have more or less disappeared from the market.

Now having a definite model designation, I suspect it was made in the 1930’s. So it could have been in storage for 70 years.

[Kilian]

Here’s one I found on edgedweapons.nl. The description mentions the fittings to be of brass and they certainly look like that. Shiny brass fittings would, in my view, better match a grande tenue, than dull red copper fittings. But then, why would the French description use the word cuivre, rather than laiton?

[AndyB]

Copper is softer material as brass would be not used on similar hangers, but this could be coated by copper, which was done by various items, You could look on real one and proof it inerly by small file, Copper is more red by normal full material, i work for years with copper wire as electrician on daily base. This color is too pinky as only coated thin layer over. In war time were steel cartridge coated with copper too.