A Military Denied It's Chain of Tradition?

[carpediem]

I read an interesting article recently, something about how a German army unit had a little plaque that paid homage to the men of WW2 who served in it's ranks. The discovery was met with outrage and scorn, and the leadership promised to erase any vestige of Nazism from the army.

Therein lies my question. Can and should the army be held responsible and punished for the crimes of it's government and of government aligned para-military units? Should the sacrifice and courage of the men, without any discussion of politics, be erased because of who held the reins of power at that time? Not every German soldier was a member of the party, obviously.

The American army proudly cites battles back to the Revolution, and sundry places like Shiloh, Gettysburg, Cold Harbor and Fredricksburg in the Civil War, and other conflicts which are too many to list.

Same for the British, French and likely most armed forces around the world. Tradition builds unit cohesion and morale.

The Japanese committed horrible atrocities at the army level, likely not sanctioned by the government, but I am unaware of how this period of history is dealt with by them. They are also a culture steeped in tradition, hearkening back to the samurai to evoke fanaticism in their WW2 soldiers.

It is an interesting subject to me. Why the Germans cannot be proud of their forbears for the fear of being called a Nazi. An apolitical soldier doing heroic things for the wrong side is no less a brave soldier than any other, no?

Maybe this is too political a topic for the forum, but it does have a place I think in the collecting community.
Perhaps I am wrong and people cannot discuss it with civility and thought.
For me, it is worthy of discussion from an apolitical stance.

What say you?

[TWS]

I think whoever got their underwear in a twist about that plaque is a thin-skinned snowflake.
I could not tell you the situation now, but 20-some years ago I was part of a small exchange delegation to the German officer academy in Hannover (I believe it has relocated since). I was there for an entire week and a few months later we in return hosted a German delegation (much the same officers and officer candidates that hosted us in Germany). During my stay at the OSH in Hannover I once found myself in an upper floor hallway - If I recall it was connecting some offices and the small private dining lounge, a bit more out of public view than the main lobby or any reception areas on the ground floor - and I noted with satisfaction that the class photos lining the hallway up and down did not skip over the Wehrmacht. There was each class in proper uniform with nothing censored or blurred out. The German Heer had fought very capably and bravely during WWII and to deny that history and that tradition would be limp-wristed political correctness. Granted, we all know it fought on behalf of an evil regime but putting politics aside the Wehrmacht period is clearly part of German military history. With that in mind, I was glad to see they hadn't "glossed over" the period by having a huge gap in the timeline of photographs.

[08SMLE48]

I feel that this is an extremely important topic. Most service members in time of total war don’t give a damn about politics. They serve out of a dedication and duty to people. The people in their family, community, and those people to their left and right when they are down range and the bullets are flying. I think that regardless of uniform, the individual is what should be memorialized not the institution necessarily. Hiding or erasing a portion of history is not a form of justice or doing right. That unit should by no means glorify that portion of their history but instead use it learning and progression forward so that sort of thing never happens again. But I also understand it’s a tight line to walk and I’m sure they feel like they are in a “ damned if you do, damned if you don’t “ situation.

[carpediem]

The United States has been censoring history to a political end lately, with the destruction of statues and memorials to the men who fought for the Confederate States. Many of the leadership in the army raised by the south were former officers in the regular army. They resigned out of duty to their states, and not slavery, as it is often suggested. When I stood on the spot where General Lewis Armistead fell at Gettysburg, I was reminded of his inquiry as to General Hancock, and his sorrow upon hearing he had been wounded grievously, when he supposedly said "not both of us" in reference to his own realization his wounds would prove fatal. They fought friends and colleagues, and deserve their monuments as much as any other. Those were different times and current society cannot grasp the reality known by society then.

[TWS]

To bolster Al's point: During the American Civil War there were West Point classmates facing each other across the battlefield during every major engagement. Men who had studied and drilled and played sports and dined and lived in the same barracks together found themselves on opposite sides a few years or even just months later.

[BrodieBartfast]

Reminds me of a rather pertinent quote by L.P. Hartley: 'The past is a different country; they do things differently there'.

B.B.

[cvrwdvr]

In recent years the Bundeswehr has done its best to purge itself of any traditions which might be considered to tarnish its reputation by association with the Wehrmacht.
Two obvious examples are:

The discontinuation of the tradition name Moelders, along with the associated cufftitle, by Jagdgeschwader 74 in 2005.

The discontinuation of the use of the Windhund badge, formerly the famous badge of the 116 Pz Div, by BW Pz Gren Btl 212.

Sometimes these decisions are imposed by politicians, as was the case with JG Moelders, and other times from within the BW itself, as I believe was the case with the Windhund badge.

In the Bundeswehr Museum in Dresden there is a display devoted to BW traditions which have fallen foul of 'political correctness'.

It appears to be the case that politicians, and the BW itself , have become a lot more conscious recently of distancing themselves from any association with the Wehrmacht , possibly in line with current trends of political correctness and a new, more cosmopolitan, multi-cultural Germany.

This contrasts with the early years of the BW when many serving soldiers were former serving members of the WH, and the wearing of '57 awards was permitted.

Incidentally, it seems odd that former WH members were permitted to wear decorations awarded by the Nazi regime, but it was forbidden for former serving members of the NVA to wear decorations awarded by that regime !

[Watchdog]

This is a topic that has long caused me great indignation and I agree totally with all the comments above.

I have litle time for mainstream politics (not the same thing as diplomacy of course) and hold the personal belief that most of the exponents of that discipline "could not lie straight in bed"!

However, to me, something far worse is "political correctness".

As has been said above there are examples of such nonsense in most armies and the US Army is mention in the context of the Civil War when "brother met brother" in the field.
This was also a feature of the American War of Independance when British soldiers encountered family members who had emmigrated and now fought on the side of the colonists.

In the case of the BW I find it particulary tragic given the fractured history preceeding it. Even the use of the Iron Cross is denied them which I feel is a cultural offence and affront more than anything else. It was instituted in the 19th century for goodness sake and is still a German icon to most of the world. The Nazis used it they did not create it! I was saddened and really felt the frustration that many in the BW must have felt when the last attempt to restore it as a German military award was defeated. Funny though how a close aproximation still adorns BW vehicles and aircraft rather than the Balkenkreuz

Perhaps we as outsiders should not seek to comment but as many of us are soldiers or ex-soldiers perhaps we do have something to say.

I remember visiting my opposite number "der Spiess" in the Feldjaegerkompanie at Muensterlager in Germany and being delighted to see a large portrait of Erwin Rommel on his office wall. But even then Rommel had been adjudged as "politically acceptable".

Of course, anything directly connected to the NSDAP should be expunged because it is a stain on the character and history of a fine organisation with a proven history. The Nazi regime used the Wehrmacht they did not establish it. Saying that I do feel that a great deal of what is done in the name of "de-Nazification" is actually more a case of over-senitivity and ignorance of history. I know it is not a force wide action but I do have anecdotal account from serving BW troops that local attempts have been made to prohibit the singing of marching songs like "Erika" and Westerwaldlied" neither of which have any NS connotations at all.

It is my feeling that modern society as a whole is in danger of losing "the way" and that people who do not benefit from the morale building (and it certainly is) of longstanding tradition and custom should perhaps spend a little time "scoping" the matter as they do with business plans etc.

Three points I try to live my life by;
1. Remember, you are not the most important person in the world.
2. Nobody owes you anything save loyalty where due.
3. Being offended does not in itself make you right.

I find the whole thing quite disheartening really. Here we are getting steamed up about a bunch of snowflakes.
In the end it is politicians who start the fight and soldiers who stop it. Maybe that is a more appropriate starting point for the "Limp wristers" debate.

Regards

Mark

[Gunny Hartmann]

Let's not forget that the Bundeswehr even abandoned a traditional "Germanic" uniform, instead adopting an American inspired design. They really were very keen to cut any ties with the past.

[carpediem]

It is good to see we can separate the NSDAP and indeed the SS from the regular military. Many cannot. I have read, and forgive me as I cannot recall the author nor the work, that many career Wehrmacht officers and general staff disliked the SS and disliked being in formations which included SS units. Some even going so far as to request they remove their uniforms and not make themselves obvious. There clearly was a schism within the armed forces themselves during the war. As our member FB explained to me, the only awards allowed post war were for military service and honors. Nothing political. This stands to reason with the deletion of the former fascist government and it's trappings. The NVA was just another form of totalitarian government, and sought to erase all vestiges of what was, as most usually do. It is sad to see FB had deleted many posts, as he, if I recall correctly, served in Germany post war as well as others here, but perhaps a bit earlier. I appreciate the non political comments and discussion. Sometimes a break from the "is this real?" while still being pertinent to why we are all here is welcome.