Need help! Dagger for Government Official,.. original?

[3rdreich]

There is another dagger shown on Wittmann's site. Although it is diplomatic, it is also Alcoso. The cross guard is very well cast there. I looked at the Government Officials Alcoso daggers on Lakesidetrader with a good cross guard cast and it confused me for my opinion.
Georgi.

I saw that dagger on Wittmann’s website too. It’s definitely a much nicer cast and I 100% agree with you that it’s confusing as they are a lot better, but they generally seem to be diplomat daggers with the eagle facing the opposite direction. I remember Wittmann spent some time on one of his past videos talking about diplomats vs government officials. From memory he said that a lot of people thought the government official daggers were reproductions for many years, but I can’t remember what episode this was. Like Ger said, daggers vary depending on when they were manufactured.

I personally just try and not give my opinion as I’ve only been collecting for less than a decade, and there’s collectors who have five times as much experience as me as well as people with family members who have given them first hand knowledge on said subjects on here. I just try and bite my tongue so to speak so I don’t give bad advice. Like I said before my biggest fear is original items being thrown in to the bin, nothing else.

Regards
Liam

[Kasper]

Back again from a business travel and have now time to follow and reply again.
#Gerrit, I agree to 100% and trust Emil also to 1000% and this is for me important.

I guess the main issue is that these daggers are very rare, G.O or Diplo, and there are only a few collectors that have the experience. The other issue perhaps is the "German image" that Germans always prdoduced / produce high quality products at any time. This isn`t true, in past or now a days! Okay, the Panther and the Tiger tank can be exceptions but they were also facing quality issues ;-)....

Coming back to this Alcoso, I´ve got a reply from Mr. Wittmann (which I´ve never expected) and he stated it as a 100% original Alcoso G.O. dagger. I´m still in conversation with him and I will post (if he approves).

Even if it is not that 100% high quality dagger and a bit crude, I´m very happy to have it in my collection. It is very difficult to find one which is original.

I´m also happy to post it here and the discussion we all had, because now it is clear that it is a good one and it will help other collectors to justify if they are offered one from Alcoso. Last but not least, when I will find the time I will post better made pictures with the correct light, etc...

Kepp you informed

[Anderson]

Interesting to compare the crossguard of the subject dagger and an Alcoso example with LST dealer.

[Kasper]

#Anderson, what do you want to say with it?
We all need to consider the age of all daggers from this time, almost 100 years!
Some are mint, others in bad conditions. There is a wide range...
This example from you (LTS)is obviously in a much better condition.
No one knows what the storage condition was on my posted dagger, etc...
The origin of the G.O dagger is confirmed by very well experienced collectors and Mr. Wittmann as well.
So there is no need for me talk around again if it is origin or not.
I have the impression you want with all power to evidence my posted dagger isn`t origin, or am I wrong?
Just a question, how many G.O daggers do you have in your collection? Or please descripe your experience on G.O. daggers.

[Anderson]

Comparison to a benchmark piece is one of the key ways we judge a subject under study. The study of patina and aging effects on edged weapons is an area I have focused on and have an interest. The thread in itself becomes an educational tool and a consensus answer will eventually form. The question of the unbalanced condition is actually the key point. Did it arise from 1) poor storage/ abuse, 2) poor manufacture /casting, 3) a non original part or post war reconstruction with other parts (which did occur in the 1960's)
You don't need to take part in the discussion, but Forums invite a range of views.

[Kasper]

I agree to 100% to your statement but if the time comes when it is clear that one item, which is discussed, is original in all parts should the discussion whether it is original or not come to an end.
I´ve contacted Mr. Wittmann and add here the screen shots of his answers.
I guess it will help to educate.

[gerrit]

Interesting to compare the crossguard of the subject dagger and an Alcoso example with LST dealer.

Yes clear to see the LST is a later produced one.
Looking at the early production ones a lot was handcarved, look for example at the early armies that E.Pack produced.
I have seen fat swastika's next to thin leg ones having the same base type 1 guard, so nothing new there.
Look at this swastika from E.pack

Cheers
Ger

[Billy G]

Sorry that I’m late to the party on this one. I would agree with Ger that this dagger is an original early Alcoso GO dagger.

The GO/Diplo models are somewhat specific and there can be a lot of confusion over them. There is a huge disparity in the finishing between Alcoso examples and Eickhorn with the latter being more refined in appearance.

I would also suggest though that there is a difference in the finishing between Alcoso Diplo daggers and some Alcoso GO daggers with the Diplo daggers seemingly having extra care taken to refine the details, particularly the crossguard eagle. Some Alcoso GO daggers can seem quite crude and fool some as to their originality. Certainly this is true in the area around the swaz and wreath.

I would agree with the members that cautioned against taking these daggers down. Many times they don’t entirely line up properly and sometimes this can result in damage to the parts.

There are many elements to consider when evaluating these daggers and nothing substitutes for in hand experience.

[Kasper]

Sorry for being late but I was very bussy. I´ve not forgotten to make better pictures.

[wagner]

Unless you know this model it's best not to comment on it, as it just confuses more than helps answer.

1. the subject dagger is an early logo Alcoso, which appears original production, with all Alcoso parts.
2. The placement on the logo in the obverse while unusual on this model is not the determining factor for being messed-with postwar.
2b. You can't take and turn around a blade on this model and make it properly fit. So, IMO, It came like that from Alcoso.
3. Regarding the quality of the various Alcoso crossguards: You will generally find that the Diplomatic versions are much better finished than the G.O. versions. (They spent more time on them, apparently).
4. The are known 'No-Maker' Alcoso G.O. 'freaks' that show outstanding Diplomatic crossguard quality, including the large wreath on a Diplomatic eagle
but in a G.O. configuration (If that wasn't enough to confuse collectors further with this wonderful model), However, that's beyond the scope of this discussion.
Here is one that sold at auction: Government Official Dagger
5. Billy and others are correct; resist the urge to see where the tea is made in China on this model. DO NOT DISASSEMBLE.

-Serge M.