Railway Leaders 1st Pattern

[Stevade]

When I started collecting Edged Weapons I was 17, I am now 59, back then there was hardly any reference guides available. When I managed to get a copy of Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich by Tom Johnson it became a bible to me in my hobby. I then picked up a book written by Fredrick Stevens, and eventually all the rest of Tom Johnson’s books .... so back then I didn’t know my stuff, but by research I think I’ve quite a good idea now.
And yes I’ve bought stuff by mail order, only to be disappointed when it arrives, pictures alone are not good enough. I have returned stuff and received back reluctant refunds.
I have had dealings with Tom Johnson and Paul at Lakesidetrader without any issues.
But as you say Ralph you really need the original item in your hand to make a comparison before a purchase is made ... Very difficult if Mail order, also where did you obtain the original ( or is it? )

[Lakesidetrader]

So yea, I have to sell items the way I see them, I have to live with myself. I have and will disagree with Johnson, Witty or others on occasion. Both of these guys have been kind enough to mentor me in my past. I highly respect them both and feel like I know enough now to stand on my own. Yes, I have and will still make errors. Sometimes people ask me for opinions on stuff. They then go right back to the source and say "Lakesidetrader says...".
Well guys, I have to work with these dealers and telling them that I disagree with their opinions does not improve my working relationships. Sometimes it's just easier to be silent.
I recently got into trouble over this one for doing the very same thing: 2nd Model Navy w dedicated blade and scabbard personalized | Lakesidetrader
So yea I have to sell these things as I see them and I will continue to do so.

[Stevade]

That’s a fair comment Paul .... Maybe some of the UK Dealers need to adopt that attitude.
They appear to have a Jekyl and Hyde attitude.

Thanks for the response

[Frogprince]

I think that Paul is one of the better dealers in the TR dagger collecting business . That said, and not to 'rain on anyone's parade' - the so-called "1st Model Railway" daggers are in the category of being a collector's myth . In reality being German Army daggers with black grips - many of which show signs of white paint being removed. A topic that has been discussed here and on other forums with this forum having some valuable contributions in the way of actual period documentation that backs up what I'm saying. Best Regards, Fred

[Anderson]

To follow up Fred's comments. There are some very good threads here on WRF with regards the Reichsbahn dagger. Wim Saris has posted some interesting and I think compelling documentary evidence that in the official regulations (which Wim has copies of) there was no mention of a Reichsbahn (Railway) dagger before 1941. And no mention of a Bahnschutzpolizei dagger before 1938. The 1941 documented Railway dagger had the sunwheel swastika similar to a Luftwaffe dagger and was very different to a Heer dagger. So it would appear before 1941 Reichsbahn used swords and bayonets with dress uniforms. As Fred said the "1st model Railway" is probably a complete myth invented by post war collectors and dealers.

The "Eickhorn 2nd pattern Railway" dagger advertised on Lakeside is not a "Railway" (Reichsbahn) dagger, but a Bahnschutzpolizei dagger.

[Stevade]

Not sure what you mean Anderson .... The dagger in discussion on Lakesidetrader’s site is advertised by Paul as a 1st Model Railway by Eickhorn not a 2nd Pattern Bahnschutzpolizei as you’ve mentioned.

[Frogprince]

Not sure what you mean Anderson .... The dagger in discussion on Lakesidetrader’s site is advertised by Paul as a 1st Model Railway by Eickhorn not a 2nd Pattern Bahnschutzpolizei as you’ve mentioned.

I don't know if this will help or muddy the waters: The black handled German Army style daggers at various times labeled as "German Army Engineer's Daggers", then "Funeral Daggers", with apparently the latest many years ago as the "1st Model Railway Daggers". Same dagger, usually the same maker Klaas that was also credited with the collector myth of the black handled "Luftwaffe Funeral Daggers". A well discussed topic on this forum as the so-called "1st Model Railway" it resulted in an examination of the facts surrounding it. The Bahnschutzpolizei Dagger brought into the discussion to provide some facts, and as a basis to discredit the collectors myth. Black handles themselves not appearing in period Solingen publications, catalogs (to include Eickhorn), or German Army regulations. Best Regards, Fred

[Stevade]

Thanks Fred .... Still a lot of if’s and but’s regarding these so called daggers .. whether Railway, Funeral, or Army Engineers ... I’d personally have a Bahnschutzpolizei dagger as there isn’t any doubts with that one.
Until there is some solid evidence regarding the 1st Model it will remain a Not Sure Dagger!!