Mysterious Reichswehr helmets

[Wolf]

Hello everyone,

Today I would like to try to clarify a question with you that has been puzzling me for years and to which I have not yet found an answer. It's about split pins on Reichswehr helmets (Since I wasn't sure which group this belongs in, I thought it would be best in the group discussions because we want to discuss it^^).

Again and again I come across helmets that were used by the Reichswehr after the First World War. However, although the helmets are original and largely WW1 style, the two front split pins are often round rather than flat as seen on WW1 helmets. Sometimes the chin strap was also replaced (notable especially on the M18). From the signs of wear and tear, however, this seems to have happened at the time. I looked up a few examples on the internet:

1a.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg

I also found a few historical photos where it seems to me that the helmets also have round split pins.

1b.jpg

2b.jpg

Originally I thought these were field repairs, but now that I've seen them several times, I'm wondering if the round split pins were a typical change in the Reichswehr or how it came about?

I hope you can shed some light on the matter. Every contribution is appreciated.

Best regards
Wolf

[TabsTabs1964]

Hello Wolf.
It is a very interesting question, indeed.
Helmets are not my area of ​​expertise, let's wait to see the opinion of one of the helmet experts.

Regards
Santi

[AndyM35]

Hi Wolf,

I have a suspicion that this may be related to the liner system that was being used in these helmets at the time as these were in use prior to the introduction of the M31 liner. I have to go out but will write a more detailed response a little later.

Andy

[Wolf]

Hi Andy,

many thanks for your response. I'm really looking forward to hearing your guesses.

Best regards
Wolf

[AndyM35]

Hi Wolf,

The first couple of photos show Austrian helmets and some of these did have these larger raised rivets while some had the flat type. A lot of Austrian helmets were refurbished by Germany for use post WW1, so it may be that what you are seeing in these images are a mix of Austrian and German made WW1 shells being used by the Reichswehr etc. hence some having raised dome type rivets. The third photo of the eco helmet shows a regular flat type rivet with period paint and patina and to my eyes appears original to the helmet. Perhaps the odd one on the left was a period fitted bodge (i.e. something to hold the liner if no proper rivets were at hand etc), or perhaps a post 1945 replacement??

Unfortunately, the other photos don’t really show enough detail to indicate whether they are of German or Austrian manufacture, however a mix of the two is very possible a many Austrian shells were re-purposed for use by the Reichswehr during the 30’s. Great photos by the way, but I don’t know enough about those uniforms in the photos to provide a precise date.

Andy

[M.E.E.]

Is it possible they are using Czech updated helmets? World War Helmets - Casque Vz 20 The Vz20, the rivets look the same and it is the same style that was used on the Vz28 Vz30 Vz32. Just a thought.

[Wolf]

Hello M.E.E.,

thanks for your contribution I would rule out the Czech ones in this case because they don't really match. I rather think that Andy is on the right track with his guess. Anyway, thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

Best regards
Wolf

[Wolf]

Hello Andy,

Thank you for your research work. I hadn't thought of Austrian rivets at all. The realization blew my mind. It's really great to have such an expert like you by your side!

With this information I have now also researched again and found that you are right and that these raised, round rivets are often found on Austrian steel helmets from the First World War.

For the Austrian M17 steel helmets, it makes perfect sense that they have such rivetes and may have been adopted by the Reichswehr.


But what still concerns me is the question of how it is with the German steel helmets that wear such rivets?


As an example, here is one of my favorite helmets from my own collection. (Unfortunately I can't provide better pictures because my camera is broken and I only have this picture which was taken with a bad camera...).

Wolf.jpg

As you can see, it is a German M18 ECO. Nevertheless, it has the two raised, round rivetes in front, as used by the Austrians.


I know that the Austrians in First World War, besides the Berdorfer helmet and the Austrian M17 based on the German model, obtained a large number of German helmets. Since there was probably a shortage of steel helmets in Austria, steel helmets are said to have been obtained from Germany until the end of the war in 1918.

So far so good. But from what I have read, the German helmets were probably delivered ready for use (German colour, German lining and German chin strap) or (at least in the case of the M16) as shells, which were then completed by Austrian manufacturers with the Austrian colour, Austrian Lining, Austrian chin strap holder and Austrian chin strap.

In the case of the rare M18 ECO though, I would be surprised if it came as a shell. Besides that it has the German M18 chinstrap attachment.


There were arguably previously used German helmets that were refurbished by the Austrians, however this was only done by the two manufacturers Cilli and one in the town of Brunn and each of these helmets was given a special triangular mark. Since such a mark is missing here, this can be ruled out.


If so, the helmet should have reached Austria ready for the fight in the German version. So the question arises, how did it get the two Austrian rivets on the front and the other chin strap (it is not an M18 chin strap)?
(Can you perhaps also tell me whether the chin strap is also Austrian?)


I hope that you can help me with this.

Thank you in advance for all your efforts.


Best regards
Wolf

[AndyM35]

Hi Wolf,

It’s definitely an interesting question, but my main area of interest with regards to helmets is mostly German Imperial WW1 and 2. It’s a shame you cannot take any photos of your ECO as I’d be very interested to see what sort of liner it has in it. The right side vent lug on your example looks like a Bell L rounded lug which is interesting if it is, but I’m sure it’s just the angle.

I know that after WW1, Germany supplied Finland with a lot of surplus WW1 helmets including ECO helmets. I found the picture below online and it would appear to have the same domed type rivets. I read that some were repainted and refitted with new liners and pins, while others were left with their original WW1 paint, so perhaps your example is one of these??

Andy
55F3A790-0591-4DDC-AB97-3D66F53D3237.jpeg

[Wolf]

Hi Andy,

Thank you for your quick response.

Of course I understand that you are particularly interested in the German helmets of the First World War as they are really fascinating. Personally, I generally collect steel helmets from the First World War from all nations involved, because I also find it very interesting which paths the different countries took in developing their steel helmets and how they influenced each other.

And yes it's really annoying that I can't take any photos now. But when I get a new camera, I might make a whole thread about this helmet.


As you have already guessed, the right side ventilation lug does not have a Bell L rounded lug. It's just the angle of the shot. The ventilation lugs on both sides correspond to the standard ventilation lugs as used on all M18 ECO by Eisenhüttenwerke Thale (ET).


Since I can't take a photo of the inner lining, I picked out a photo of one that is relatively similar to mine. Except that mine has gotten a lot darker over time (and probably due to the wearer sweating a lot).^^

1.jpg
(Liner relatively similar to my helmet)


As far as I know, it corresponds to the normal inner lining used for M18 helmets in the First World War. The chin strap hanger also corresponds to that of M18 helmets.


Regarding your guess with Finland, I have dealt with German helmets of the First World War used in Finland in the past. I can rule out that this helmet was used in Finland.

In the German helmets used in Finland, the inner lining and the rivets were indeed replaced. But since they used a completely different inner lining, the helmets had an additional rivet on each side (see photo below).

Finland.jpg
(German helmets used in Finland)

The fact that the front rivets appear round on the helmets from Finland is more of an optical illusion, I think. If you look at the photo (see photo above), you can see that the front rivet is quite flat and only slightly curved, but since the helmets in Finland have a second part underneath (probably a washer), the two parts together look like a round rivet.

In addition, the inner lining in Finland (see photo below) is not attached to a metal ring but to a leather ring (also on the M18). In addition, the leather tongues in Finland are divided into three separate areas by the seams, which is not the case with the German leather tongues (as with my helmet).

Finland 1.jpg
(Liner of a German helmet used in Finland)

Overall, these helmets look very different from my helmet.

Here is also the link to a threat where a German helmet that was used in Finland is shown: Finnish used German M18 helmet...


Overall, it also looks to me that all parts of my helmet come from the First World War. I rather think that you were probably right in your assumption that the rivets (and probably also the chin strap) are Austrian specimens.

The only question that remains is why the rivets and the chin strap were exchanged for Austrian specimens?

Hopefully someone can shed some light on this.

Best regards
Wolf