Verifiable sources

**Glittering_Ship4193** · 04-01-2020, 05:21 PM

Crosspost from WAF. If this is in the wrong place, feel free to move but the flag forum was dead. This is primarily about flags, but can be geared towards other areas of collecting as well.

A lot of people on this forum have knowledge with a good amount of it garnered from their years of collecting/experiences. However, I rarely see if ever, any academic or research based sources being cited or shared backing up claims. crwflags.com does cite some books in their write ups. This expands way beyond flags. The blacklight test is at best, controversial due to recent literature and no one in their right mind is going to cut a part of their flag if there are no loose strings to run a burn test. I think it would be helpful for younger collectors like myself if the seasoned folks could expand on how they sourced the knowledge to determine something is authentic rather than saying "X is stitched like ABC so its good". Why? Who told you that? Where did you gather that knowledge? What makes you think that is an accurate source of truth? etc. As fakes get better and items continue to get exposed as fakes, it is critical for the maintaining of accuracy in this hobby that verifiable sources of truth are documented and maintained as much as possible.

**rbminis** · 04-01-2020, 06:18 PM

Most of the longer term collectors are willing to research and read past threads, to help them determine if something they are interested in is original or not.
There are many threads containing good, original flags for reference.
They don't generally post a thread on everything they have an interest in, asking the membership to supply them with all of the information they need.
Ralph.

**Glittering_Ship4193** · 04-01-2020, 06:22 PM

That's pretty much the same issue I outlined above. That doesn't educate. I don't expect people to have memorized threads. But if a thread was important someone might have bookmarked or subscribed to it and you might remember some of the content and say "hey, I don't remember the exact thread but it talked about ABC, try searching this term".

**Rakkasan187** · 04-01-2020, 06:45 PM

Akriener,

Welcome to the forum.. Hopefully you will be able to find answers to your research in our old posts and topics...I agree that sometimes it is frustrating when a book is not cited and in many cases I try to provide my reference sources for those interested. The majority of my knowledge is set in US insignia and accouterments and on other forums where I am also active I make it a point to cite my reference material used...

My advice and suggestion is start a reference library of your own. We have been adding reference books to our library and these are sources that many of our members have in their private collections and have been willing to share with our members..

There are some excellent reference books available on just about every topic.

If I can be of any help, feel free to contact me via PM

Best regards

Smitty

**rbminis** · 04-01-2020, 06:45 PM

by akriener

That's pretty much the same issue I outlined above. That doesn't educate. I don't expect people to have memorized threads. But if a thread was important someone might have bookmarked or subscribed to it and you might remember some of the content and say "hey, I don't remember the exact thread but it talked about ABC, try searching this term".

So, you're saying that if you read through some of the past threads where different flags have been discussed in detail, including photos, (because we do not allow the use of outside photo hosting sites), that this does not educate???

Or, are you saying that you do not want to take the time to read past threads, you would prefer for some of the other members to tell you exactly where to find the information that you seek???

There is a ton of information on this forum, you just need to take some time to research your field of interest.

Being told all of the time that your item is fake, or original, does not educate!!!
Ralph.

**Glittering_Ship4193** · 04-01-2020, 06:53 PM

by Rakkasan187

Akriener,

Welcome to the forum.. Hopefully you will be able to find answers to your research in our old posts and topics...I agree that sometimes it is frustrating when a book is not cited and in many cases I try to provide my reference sources for those interested. The majority of my knowledge is set in US insignia and accouterments and on other forums where I am also active I make it a point to cite my reference material used...

My advice and suggestion is start a reference library of your own. We have been adding reference books to our library and these are sources that many of our members have in their private collections and have been willing to share with our members..

There are some excellent reference books available on just about every topic.

If I can be of any help, feel free to contact me via PM

Best regards

Smitty

by rbminis

So, you're saying that if you read through some of the past threads where different flags have been discussed in detail, including photos, (because we do not allow the use of outside photo hosting sites), that this does not educate???

Or, are you saying that you do not want to take the time to read past threads, you would prefer for some of the other members to tell you exactly where to find the information that you seek???

There is a ton of information on this forum, you just need to take some time to research your field of interest.

Being told all of the time that your item is fake, or original, does not educate!!!
Ralph.

Smitty, that is exactly what I am talking about. However in the age of the internet, books often become outdated or new information comes to light that can't be shoved into a book.

Ralph, I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is yes, you older collectors have knowledge but how do YOU verify it is accurate. "so and so told me so it must be true" doesn't cut it. Yes, you could have post on post that beats the same topic to death but just because there are 50 posts on one topic doesn't ensure the accuracy of the information. Professionals make mistakes as well, even those that have been collecting for years. A flag in a collecting setting is different from images of flags in a historical setting. There's flag construction manuals from the period available, albeit in German but I have never seen one cited on any forums. Do we need to bring up Jo Rivett again and pissing off all those people for exposing those FJ badges or whatever they were? All I'm asking for is an explanation of why people think their sources are accurate. It's up to me and other to determine if we feel those answers are then satisfactory.

**rbminis** · 04-01-2020, 07:15 PM

Sorry, this is not school, and nobody is being paid to teach new members what is, or isn't.
If you want to become a serious collector, the responsibility of learning falls on your shoulders alone.

It will not happen over night. Especially if you don't trust what some members say.

Go to shows, ( a little difficult right now but,) handle real items, and get a feel for what is original or not.

Images alone are not enough. You are a member of 3 forums that I know of, do some research, and compare what members comments, (and images), are from one forum to another.
Ralph.

**Glittering_Ship4193** · 04-01-2020, 07:26 PM

by rbminis

Sorry, this is not school, and nobody is being paid to teach new members what is, or isn't.
If you want to become a serious collector, the responsibility of learning falls on your shoulders alone.

It will not happen over night. Especially if you don't trust what some members say.

Go to shows, ( a little difficult right now but,) handle real items, and get a feel for what is original or not.

Images alone are not enough. You are a member of 3 forums that I know of, do some research, and compare what members comments, (and images), are from one forum to another.
Ralph.

This isn't a school, but this is a community and accurate, verifiable and reputable knowledge should be shared. As your father was in the war, I imagine you're one of the old guard. It's up to younger folks like myself to pick up the mantle and continue to grow and maintain the hobby. As someone who's 31, I'm not opposed to doing a little work to find out information as long as it's accurate. But I can tell you with a fair level of confidence that people younger than me are not going to tolerate these old mindsets in the age of disinformation.

**rbminis** · 04-01-2020, 09:17 PM

by akriener

This isn't a school, but this is a community and accurate, verifiable and reputable knowledge should be shared. As your father was in the war, I imagine you're one of the old guard. It's up to younger folks like myself to pick up the mantle and continue to grow and maintain the hobby. As someone who's 31, I'm not opposed to doing a little work to find out information as long as it's accurate. But I can tell you with a fair level of confidence that people younger than me are not going to tolerate these old mindsets in the age of disinformation.

I share knowledge every day on here.

I have only been collecting for a little over 10 years, if you mean that being part of the "old guard" means that I am willing to do my own leg work, and my own research, then I guess I am part of the "old guard".
I believe it is called being independent.

What I am hearing from your comments, are that the people younger than you are not going to tolerate these old mindsets, are simply to lazy to do their own research, and want everything bottle fed to them.
Ralph.