Is this an original WWI Other Ranks 1895 Pickelhaube

[alexander11]

Hi, nice looking Pickelhaube for sale near me & I thought best to post it here for opinion on originality. Kind Regards, Alexander.

[HARRY THE MOLE]

Yes, it looks fine.

Cheers,
Steve

[AndyM35]

Hi Alexander,

Are you able to provide any more closeup high res photos? These images are quite small and make it hard to judge the age and patina on the pickelhaube as they blur when enlarged. While the interior looks period, the outside looks much newer. This could point to, replaced non- period items, or an original helmet that has been highly polished post war so not in “war time” condition. This is what would be termed, “a restored helmet”.

When I enlarged your photos the image below is what I see, and for me, is not sufficient to judge originality by.


Cheers,
Andy

[HARRY THE MOLE]

I've looked at the pictures on ebay and it's fine. Stop getting bogged down by the lack of 'patina' Andy, it proves nothing about originality as we saw with the lightweight German helmet posted a few days ago. The seller does say that he thinks the cokades are replacements. The shell might have been given a good coating of polish and 'bulled' to hide any surface cracks in the laquer, but there are traces of dried metal polish on the leather around the buckles and the 'wappen'. For the condition, the price of £495 is around the going rate.

Cheers,
Steve

[AndyM35]

Can you provide the link to the eBay sale please Steve! I didn’t have access to the eBay sale and hence have not seen the comments from the seller. Given these new improved images, I’ll post them to some experienced Pickelhaube collectors. I note you didn’t comment on the lightweight German helmet Steve!

Cheers,
Andy

[HARRY THE MOLE]

Can you provide the link to the eBay sale please Steve! I didn’t have access to the eBay sale and hence have not seen the comments from the seller. Given these new improved images, I’ll post them to some experienced Pickelhaube collectors. I note you didn’t comment on the lightweight German helmet Steve!

Cheers,
Andy

Here's the link address...

WW1 imperial German Prussian pickelhaube | eBay

I was initially suspicious of the brass trim to the front peak, but having seen the inner picture on ebay, the kinks in the metal made me think it might be OK. I am quite sure that the shell and most of the fittings are genuine - but regularly cleaned.

As for the lightweight helmet, I didn't comment on it as there was no point in me doing so. I've never seen or handled one before, but the fact that I have never seen one, or handled one, does not mean that the item must be a fake. I will not stick my neck out and call something a fake when I know nothing about it. Such comments made about things we know nothing about could lead to someone passing up on a rare item at a potentially bargain price.

Cheers,
Steve

[MAP]

Thanks for the original link Steve.

Certainly it appears that it is highly possible for the helmet to have been cleaned (and maybe repaired) which would destroy what ever patina is there. There are certainly two camps on polishing Pickles as well. Whether to leave them as is (with just a light dusting) or the more intensive polishing / restoration. I am in the camp that it depends on the original condition of the helmet itself.

But it appears I differ and will continue to on the importance of patina. Patina is something that is real and legitimate on aged items. And even scientifically proven. Just look at the history behind the legal case on the "James - Bother of Jesus" Ossuary that reached the highest levels of the Israeli criminal justice and political system a decade or so ago. Fakers go to great lengths to add or alter patina as well. Of course, we don't have the level of scientific tools used in that case. But we can still do our best to opine if it appears to be fake or cleaned/removed or never there. All of which impacts the value or legitimacy of the item.

To the OP

To me, unfortunately these additional ebay photos leave out a few important points to finalize my opinion (just mine) one way or the other. For example, I see no photos of the wappen attachment holes behind the liner. Have these been altered? Was a different Wappen on there at one time and thus this has been replaced? If the Korkarde's been replaced, whats to say the wappen hasn't been replace as well? If a helmet has been polished removing all patina, grime, dust, it is quite easy for someone to rebuild a helmet and hide what ever clues as to what was originally there at one point in time.

Further, the more cleaning and restoration done to a Pickle the more it will impact it's value, just like it would to an award, helmet, etc.. I wouldn't say I wouldn't have this on my shelf, but I certainly wouldn't bid until I had much better photos to assess the helmet appropriately. Might be worth a punt but with the potential of restoration and the replaced Korkardes, the value IMHO is where it is currently at or maybe a bit lower.

[HARRY THE MOLE]

The point I always try to make about 'patina' is that it should not be used to judge the authenticity of a helmet. I have seen plenty of helmets that have no patina, but this does not make them any less authentic than one that carries an aged look. I have also seen many leather Pickelhaube that have had the domes as smooth as a baby's backside. Some years ago I had one that I purchased from an American collector. It had been completely painted silver at some time for use in a stage play, but when I eventually removed the paint, the leather was as smooth as the day it was made. With any helmet, the appearance it will have is mainly down to how it has been stored. Few helmets in the hands of collectors look as they did when they were first souvenired by a serviceman more than 70 years ago, and much of that is down to the way they have been stored. That aside, 'patina' is just a fancy name for oxidation, and oxidation does not form on paint. It can only form if there is a breakdown of the paint and the exposed metal starts to rust. Other than that, dark paint is just dark paint, and not patina - although it is often referred to as 'patination' or an aged look.

I should have added that extra holes in the shell for attaching the Wappen would prove nothing, and neither would the changing of the Wappen. Many collectors believe the extra holes are a sign that the helmet has been tampered with at a later date, but on the odd occasion it sometimes happened that a soldier would be posted to another regiment and swap his Wappen for the appropriate one for his new unit. It is really a question of what you wish to believe. In collecting, nothing is ever as clear cut as we would like it to be.

Cheers,
Steve

[helmet2id]

"...you didn’t comment on the lightweight German helmet.."

Which light weight helmet Andy?

[MAP]

The point I always try to make about 'patina' is that it should not be used to judge the authenticity of a helmet. I have seen plenty of helmets that have no patina, but this does not make them any less authentic than one that carries an aged look. I have also seen many leather Pickelhaube that have had the domes as smooth as a baby's backside. Some years ago I had one that I purchased from an American collector. It had been completely painted silver at some time for use in a stage play, but when I eventually removed the paint, the leather was as smooth as the day it was made. With any helmet, the appearance it will have is mainly down to how it has been stored. Few helmets in the hands of collectors look as they did when they were first souvenired by a serviceman more than 70 years ago, and much of that is down to the way they have been stored. That aside, 'patina' is just a fancy name for oxidation, and oxidation does not form on paint. It can only form if there is a breakdown of the paint and the exposed metal starts to rust. Other than that, dark paint is just dark paint, and not patina - although it is often referred to as 'patination' or an aged look.

I should have added that extra holes in the shell for attaching the Wappen would prove nothing, and neither would the changing of the Wappen. It sometimes happened that a soldier would be posted to another regiment and swap his Wappen for the appropriate one for his new unit. In collecting, nothing is ever as clear cut as we would like it to be.

Cheers,
Steve

Steve,

We can agree to disagree on patina as I noted. Maybe it is just the terminology being used and we all are using the word in a different context. But Patina as I and many others use it is more than just oxidation. Patina is a thin layer of biogenic and other particulate material that builds up over time from the environment. It forms on almost all surfaces, paint included. Patina is used to scientifically test historical artifacts for both age as well as origin. Every item is unique and subject to how/where it was stored but Patina does exist and is a valid observation to be used when studying items.

Also, having extra holes or a swapped out wappen also doesn't disprove that a helmet has not been messed with. My point is that it is an important fact when considering the purchase of a helmet. All the pieces and evidence should be considered holistically.