W-SS Officer's Schirmmütze

[BOB COLEMAN]

Stonemint-
Your example of the police visor is a wonderful example of a reproduction hat, well built, with original insignia. These better quality fakes came out around the time I stopped collecting 3rd Reich material in the early to mid 70's. Until reading this thread, I was totally unaware of the better made Breuer hats.The type of fabric used on the fake police hat is very similar to that found on the cap that began this thread.
We must also heed Herr Berthold's warning about branch piping. This has always been one of the aspects the fakers have not been able to achieve in the same level of quality of that found on period caps.
I recall buying through the mail an Army General's uniform, including visor cap for $300.00. In 1970, that was full retail. When it arrived, I found it to be a Breuer fake. I returned it for a refund only to have it sent back with me paying the postage again. I caught up with the charlitan at the OVMS a few months later. He did not have the money. However, I was young, strong and did get satisfaction. After that day, he disappeared from the show circuit, never to be seen again.

[Milan Gard]

I have here one, but this is 100% FAKE, new made Visor Hat. Info I have from internet www.extraklasse.co.uk. Made in Germany by Michael Janke. Its not Alteste, but Hat look same, I think.

I am sorry I have only this one photo, I send email for other photos, but its not really. If I will have other photos I put these on this thread.

[S.Vestae]

Stony,
happy to see you here...
your police cap is not a "Alteste model" for me, just a very nice reproduction more manufactured in 1970...
the famous "PK SW systeme" in brown is funny, and these fakers was "intelligent" ...
look the black visor, this is a Plastic model, look the poor quality SW, look the bad lining, look the post war "silver" plastic corde, and yes a strange number in the SW...

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Over the years the caps I have seen are like those in post 26. I cannot recall seeing a police cap of this type at any time in the past forty years. I never collected police caps, and paid no attention.

The cap in post 26 and its ilk had a smallish cap cover, and were not especially Sattelform as in the case of this police cap. FRG Bw and police caps of the early 1960s were not dissimilar at least in their profile.

Colleague Coleman and Hritz are aware of the other fakers besides the dagger king and Breuer fakes, I think.

Carl Sieder in Vienna also made Goering caps in the early 1970s, which I saw at the time.

Someone should return to Munich and inquire more about the Breuer legacy. I had an acquaintance in the late 1960s who actually worked for Breuer, and had first hand knowledge of the thing, but I have not seen this fellow for decades.


I shall leave to others this kind of inquiry in which others have a greater interest and passion.

Seekers of truth would do themselves and others a favor in at least spelling "Berlins aelteste Muetzenfabrik" correctly, but I realize such a wish is likely too much.

Finally, I associate myself with d'Alquen's observations about the rise and fall of on line militaria sites and their regrettable tendency to devolve into an instantaneous verification service, especially without context.

To quote Herman Kahn, the "unknown unknowns" are so overwhelming in so many cases that our struggle for the truth is often fruitless and the collateral damage of the process is far greater than people imagine, especially among some beginners.


Happy collecting.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

It is the one on the right. Correct mottled-green police wool (and it could be from a Mantel, or left-over stock). Rumor was Herr Breuer bought out the remaining inventory of August Muller (located in Munich), and hired some of the old employees. Their shape, imho, was the truest of all repros:

August Mueller still made Bundeswehr peaked caps into the 1970s. A friend of mine was a reserve officer in the Bundeswehr, and his peaked cap came from Mueller, so I am not sure it had gone tango ultra in the 1960s. Normal Germans and Austrians are always perplexed at my tendency to inspect their headwear. Maybe they see something I cannot in myself?

Even today Munich, Bavaria and Salzburg have craftsmen cap makers (Adalbert Breiter, for instance, who also made SS caps...) which are going strong, although with a younger work force. I repeat: Breiter (...not Breuer).

As to Breuer in the 1960s, I do not think that the cap making craft or guild was an especially rare thing in Munich or its environs a decade or two after the war. Hence, one should have had little difficulty in finding skilled hands of the era who could have made such fakes. But one should also recall that authentic material still existed in such abundance and the market for these things was somewhat restricted. When I lived in Vienna in 1973, there were still craftsman cap makers, which surely do not exist today.

Do look in the internet for Breiter. Or, go the Marienplatz and head towards the Stachus and you'll find it, as I did last year. They have a bespoke section, too, that is, they will make a hat to order.

[d'alquen]

It is true that low quality marks out many of the reproduction caps from the period we are talking about, but Stonemint is right to remind us that there was a whole generation of higher quality caps being made. Special one -off caps such as Diplomats and very high ranks were being made in the late sixties that were extraordinarily good. Even the mass produced caps were very close to the originals. And speaking of volume, one must always bear in mind that these early manufacturers of repro hats weren't just making the odd hat here and there. Take a look at this, the first page of an old "catalogue" from my files. Although I can't be sure as I didn't date it at the time, I believe that this particular three page listing dates from the late 70's.
D.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

Thanks to my Canadian colleague for the interesting price list.

I do recall excellent fake SS caps from the late 1960s, which were identical to the middle to late war genre, save they had plastic sweat diamonds. They were the proverbial made by the same cap maker, with the same cloth, &c. caps, but I only encountered a handful of these.

I bought a lot from German auction houses in the early 1970s and have retained all the catalogs. I suppose d'Alquen should look at them, too, to divine the presence of the better fakes.

I also recall caps that were made from the guts of authentic caps, as well. These, however, were clumsy things, generally--not well executed.

In any case, I am sure that our respective musings about our respective early experience to our Moravian colleague are more confusing than revealing.

Finally, the role of what the Germans call Fingerspitzengefuehl is also a central part of our struggle with the truth.

Each one of us has made some pretty staggering mistakes, and done so recently. Hence, we are all human, limited in our knowledge, and in constant search of a certainty that is impossible.

If I had more time in Germany, which I do not, I would go to the Breiter in Munich or one of these headwear firms and look for their records. I imagine, though, that alot of what they sell is actually made in China or the same locales that make other clothing. In the EU they do not mark these things, but it is like Hennes and Mauritz.

I did send my former girl friend, with a PhD in German history and a real Franconian accent to the Globus sportswear place in Nuremberg (they were a brauner Laden in the era 1933-45) to ask for their records, and they showed my friend a picture of the place before 1939 and described the crater left behind by the 8th Air Force and what not echelon of the RAF. Even if these people had some evidence from the past, I doubt they would have shared it with me.

The one thing you cannot do is place an advert in the local paper and ask for "Nazi cap maker...." granted the fate of Hugo Boss and the issue of slave labor and restitution for same. Such would be a losing game.

Or, I would put a newspaper advertisement to find some geriatric craftsman, and ask them how they did it.


Thanks to d'Alquen and his nice pictures. DM110 was a lot of money in 1978 or 1979.

Hail headwear.