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Hms hood ribbon for review

Article about: Dear Gents Any lights about this HMS HOOD hat ribbon, is it a genuine from the HMS HOOD famous in WW2 and what should be a clever price to pay for it??? Thanks in advance Fernando

  1. #1

    Default Hms hood ribbon for review

    Dear Gents
    Any lights about this HMS HOOD hat ribbon, is it a genuine from the HMS HOOD famous in WW2 and what should be a clever price to pay for it???
    Hms hood ribbon for reviewHms hood ribbon for reviewHms hood ribbon for review
    Thanks in advance
    Fernando

  2. #2

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    According to the HMS Hood Association website, the cap tally with the dot after The name HOOD was only used up to the outbreak of WW2. As for the authenticity of your item, I am sorry but I cannot help you.

    Cheers,
    Steve

  3. #3

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    Almost certainly a copy given the look of the tally ribbon.

  4. #4

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    Quote by HARRY THE MOLE View Post
    According to the HMS Hood Association website, the cap tally with the dot after The name HOOD was only used up to the outbreak of WW2. As for the authenticity of your item, I am sorry but I cannot help you.

    Cheers,
    Steve
    As Steve says, this title would not been worn during the war. This is because as a security (counter intelligence) measure named tallies were discontinued in favour of a common design bearing only the letters HMS just as ships names were removed to prevent quick identification.

    However, as hard as it is to tell from just a photograph this one appears to have the correct style of embroidery for a pre-war item. Often referred to as "gold" thread it was actually gilt copper which sometimes shows slight green staining which of course helps with authentication. It should also be made of silk and of course have that peculiar "smell of age" that collectors like so much!

    For the reasons stated this cannot be a relic of the Battle of The Denmark Straight and obviously if it is post war (doubtful based on construction unless it is an out and out attempt to deceive) it is a commemorative piece.

    What you can be sure of is that originals are very expensive (sometimes low 4 figures) probably because many potential buyers don't know about the generic HMS tally and that fakes of all standards are prolific.
    Also, even if wishful thinking suggests that there were pre-war tallies on board when the ship was lost consider that the only three survivors were Boy Signaller Ted Briggs, Able Seaman Robert Titburn and Midshipman William Dundass whose uniform did not include a tally (he wore an officers cap) so only two tallies between them and little likelihood of them retaining their caps makes the odds somewhat longer.

    So, the short answer is that it looks like it could be a good pre-war tally but it is not wartime.
    As for what you would have to pay. Well, how much do you want it?

    This is not the definitive answer you wanted I expect but I hope it helps.

    Regards

    Mark
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

  5. #5

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    Regarding my previous post, I only mentioned the dot after 'HOOD' as a pointer to the fact it was pre-war. I came across this image while doing some further research on the cap tally. This one was sold at auction in April 2013 and came with provenance.

    Bonhams auctions said of the cap tally:

    Recovered from the sea following the sinking. Together with three letters and a photograph of Seaman William Brent.

    Provenance:

    Recovered by Seaman Bill Brent in a boat from HMS Icarus whilst undertaking the search for survivors following the sinking. Brent recovered a cap from the water, but replaced it in the sea after reading a personal letter inside, just retaining the tally.


    Unfortunately it cannot be seen if there is a dot after 'HOOD'

    Cheers,
    Steve


    Hms hood ribbon for review

  6. #6

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    Well that's something to stir my heart. My grandfather served on HMS Hood during 1923 to 1925, but unfortunately all the photos of him in uniform at the time are not sharp enough to see the tally well. I do have a tally from this era that my grandfather got from a shipmate about that time, for HMS Mantis, and it does have the full stop after "MANTIS." But the reverse side stitching looks a little different from the example you show. The Mantis tally has no little thread loops, see the reverse side of the HMS. How significant the difference is? I'm not sure. My grandfather "Jock" is on the left.

    Hms hood ribbon for reviewHms hood ribbon for reviewHms hood ribbon for review

  7. #7

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    Quote by HARRY THE MOLE View Post
    Regarding my previous post, I only mentioned the dot after 'HOOD' as a pointer to the fact it was pre-war. I came across this image while doing some further research on the cap tally. This one was sold at auction in April 2013 and came with provenance.

    Bonhams auctions said of the cap tally:

    Recovered from the sea following the sinking. Together with three letters and a photograph of Seaman William Brent.

    Provenance:

    Recovered by Seaman Bill Brent in a boat from HMS Icarus whilst undertaking the search for survivors following the sinking. Brent recovered a cap from the water, but replaced it in the sea after reading a personal letter inside, just retaining the tally.


    Unfortunately it cannot be seen if there is a dot after 'HOOD'

    Cheers,
    Steve


    Hms hood ribbon for review
    Who knows how the cap tally said to have been recovered by Seaman Brent came to be there. Possibly a keepsake in the ships social areas?

    The fact remains that during both wars, more strictly observed in WWII the generic titles HMS, HMCS, HMAS, HMNZS, HM Destroyers, HM Minesweepers etc were worn until named patterns were reintroduced post war.

    If Bonhams were correct and this was a relic of the Battle of the Denmark Straight it would almost certainly be unique and all the more valuable. As we keep saying "buy the item not the story" and whilst I would not seek to gainsay the veterans account I certainly would want more than anecdotal single source evidence of provenance before parting with what would surely be an eye watering sum.

    So, back to the top of the thread, I think the OP item is likely an original (depending on factors discussed) pre-war HMS Hood cap tally. If it were a post-war item the construction would most probably be indicative later manufacturing techniques.

    Just my opinion.

    Regards

    Mark
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

  8. #8

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    Quote by Anderson View Post
    Well that's something to stir my heart. My grandfather served on HMS Hood during 1923 to 1925, but unfortunately all the photos of him in uniform at the time are not sharp enough to see the tally well. I do have a tally from this era that my grandfather got from a shipmate about that time, for HMS Mantis, and it does have the full stop after "MANTIS." But the reverse side stitching looks a little different from the example you show. The Mantis tally has no little thread loops, see the reverse side of the HMS. How significant the difference is? I'm not sure. My grandfather "Jock" is on the left.

    Hms hood ribbon for reviewHms hood ribbon for reviewHms hood ribbon for review
    Hi Peter,

    Your cap tally has impeccable provenance of course and I don't think that the apparent slight difference in the embroidery is indicative of anything more than a different manufacturer or slightly different timeframe of production.

    Nice family group you have there

    Regards

    Mark
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

  9. #9

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    What do you mean???

  10. #10

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    Quote by Velasco View Post
    What do you mean???
    Who are you asking? Four members have replied so you have to say who you are asking and what it is that you don't understand. As it is you are lucky to get this reply!

    Mark
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

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