MilitaryHarbor - Top
Display your banner here
Results 1 to 7 of 7

Potential 1940s era Tam o shanter

Article about: Hello. I haven’t made a thread in a while. I took a gamble the other day with a TOS from Etsy of all places for £25! It was listed as a ww2 queens own Cameron highlanders TOS. With all Br

  1. #1
    ?

    Default Potential 1940s era Tam o shanter

    Hello. I haven’t made a thread in a while.

    I took a gamble the other day with a TOS from Etsy of all places for £25!

    It was listed as a ww2 queens own Cameron highlanders TOS. With all British headgear it is pretty hard to determine a date if the ink stamp is gone. Especially in regards to Scottish headgear! But the construction of the TOS on the listings pictures definitely lined up with what I would call “WW2” era construction for Tam O shanters. So at £25 I bought since it was too good a price to not have a look at it in hand

    Immediately in hand the construction and feel reminds me of A&J gelfer’s TOS ( I will include my 1940 Gordon’s TOS) as reference. The inside of the TOS Is slightly different but online there does seem to be some variation sometimes with these A&J gelfers TOS. As everything else seem to be pretty similar.

    The cap badge I think may be a recent addition as the brass pin is brand new. The cap badge it’s self looks ok but I am not as clued up on Cameron cap badges. The details seem relatively sharp minus the left foot which looks worn down a bit. On the inside there is also a mysterious small spot of Verdigris by itself at a small little third hole ( potentially a moth hole)

    in hand it has what I would call that correct smell of old army head gear in combination with the sweatband this was definitely worn quite a lot.

    All in all I just want some other peoples thoughts. I would say it’s definitely an original TOS but unfortunately i doubt there are any features that can date it. All I can say is it seems correct for the 40s era.

    The eyelets on the back of the liner have a nice light brown paint or light brown enamel layer. Perhaps that lines up with a specific maker?

    It is missing the ribbon on the back of the eyelets but that’s not too bad all things considered.

    Hopefully you guys have some thoughts and opinions to share!


    Potential 1940s era Tam o shanter

    Potential 1940s era Tam o shanter

    Potential 1940s era Tam o shanter

    Potential 1940s era Tam o shanter

    Potential 1940s era Tam o shanter

    Potential 1940s era Tam o shanter

  2. #2
    ?

    Default

    Seen a 1945 A&J gelfer with quite a similar stitching pattern inside with light brownish eyelets. Closest so far


    Potential 1940s era Tam o shanter

    Also here is a pic of the top

    There is also a S&P Harris TOS which looks pretty similar construction wise…

  3. #3
    ?

    Default

    I have been traveling a bit lately for work, so I have been off the forum for a bit as well!

    I think you can say with confidence that if the TOS was not manufactured during the war years, that the construction is the same. Without a date it is difficult to determine because the construction (size) of issued TOS stayed the same until at least the late 1950s, if not early 1960s. I have a picture of a Gelfer TOS marked 1947 somewhere that I will try and dig up.

    I have a few TOS from the 1950s that have a similar construction to yours. The QoCH TOS has the badge backing held on by the badge, so you could probably do the same yourself, since the badge looks to have been added later.

    Potential 1940s era Tam o shanter

    Upper Left: QoCH - Late 1950s - 1961
    Upper Right: HLI - 1954
    Lower Left: RS - 1998-2006
    Lower Right: Lowland Band - 1973-1985 (Based on contract number)

    I think the TOS below illustrates when the change from the WWII construction occurred. The Lowland Brigade cap badge was adopted from 1958-1968 by the Queens' Own Highlanders. (I need to find when the different patterns were sealed)

    Potential 1940s era Tam o shanter


    You can see how the size of the TOS changed through the years.

    BL: Hard to date the TOS. It could be from WWII, or up to the 1950s. Strangely enough, it seems to be harder to find post-War TOS.

    Anytime you can find one of these TOS for such a great price it is a win!

    Cheers,

    Reid

  4. #4

    Default

    Hi John,

    I agree entirely with Reid.

    The one thing we can be sure of with unmarked TOS (and Glengarry caps for that matter) is that we can't be sure

    I am inclined to look at items without markings or provenance as;

    A. Early period - circa WWI.
    B. Mid period - Circa WWII - late '60s.
    C. Mid to late period -'70s - early '80s
    D. Late / current period - present day.

    I would be very happy to describe yours as "WWII pattern" in my collection with no hesitation at all.

    This is in line with Reid's description and the official supply system "Introduction date" does not mean that everybody was using the new item from that date.

    The trouble is that as with most uniform items any change in pattern is very rarely instant with a 100% change over. There is a very good reason for that which comes down to expense. So unless there is a huge difference between the old and new pattern EG a totally different badge or colour due to amalgamations etc which also tends to affect things like uniform facings etc or tartans in the case of Scots units, the changes occur on a "waste out" basis where serving soldiers get the new pattern when replacing a worn out item and only new recruits get the new pattern immediately because it is their first issue. Add to this the vagaries of such a large supply system and the foibles of manufacturers that often result in a brand new pattern being unavailable because stock is "Dues out from trade" which means the same as "back order" in civilian parlance and the difficulties become even more apparent.

    The tartan patch is a matter of choice as far as you are concerned because as Reid says, during the period it was often just held in place by the badge but more importantly during hostilities it was very often omitted all together. It is hard to imagine the average Jock in the field being even slightly concerned about it when he had so much else on his mind!

    The bright new split pin is neither here nor there except to say it is definitely not the original but there are many reasons for that none of which make any real difference.

    A top tip for sympathetic restoration is that the tape from a woollen puttee (I bet you have a tatty old one amongst your dad's bits and pieces) is as close as "Damm it" is to swearing to the missing draw ribbon/tape and I defy anyone to tell the difference.

    @Reid If you are referring to the Sealed Pattern date for the Lowland Brigade badge, Kipling and King quotes it as 17th Nov 1958 which was the anodised aluminium type (I don't believe at that date there would have been a white metal issue version).

    I hope this helps. Oh, and next time you see a bargain like that give me a shout will you?

    Regards

    Mark
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

  5. #5
    ?

    Default

    Thank you guys!

    I feel now for the price I paid it definitely was worth it. I am pretty sure a local antique shop has a few puttee’s for sale so I will definitely update once I have sourced that.

    I don’t intend to add a tartan patch as my 1940 Gordon’s one doesn’t have one so I think the omission of one just suits the piece. However I am now wondering if I should source a better example of a cap badge ( maybe of a different regiment as well!) but that wouldn’t be too hard

    Don’t worry watchdog If I do stumble across something similar price wise, I ain’t needing a duplicate so I will keep an eye out for you

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote by Jb4046 View Post
    I am now wondering if I should source a better example of a cap badge ( maybe of a different regiment as well!) but that wouldn’t be too hard
    You will easily find another Camerons badge there seem to be lot out there. There is nothing really wrong with that one though and don't forget that a mint badge will look out of place on a worn bonnet. I would make patina the deciding factor because some white metal badges take on a much more aesthetically pleasing hue over time than others which remain with almost no apparent age. Also, a word to the wise as I am sure it would occur to you but it's a good idea if you want to change to a different regiment to check that there is no "shadow" from the Camerons badge. I don't mean a simple impression in the wool which would likely brush out but a darker outline of the badge where the rest of the bonnet has faded in sunlight. Another obvious thing is the distance between the lugs as you don't want to be making new holes

    Regards

    Mark
    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares more about than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature with no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

  7. #7
    ?

    Default

    I just realized the 1958 to 1968 Queen’s Own Highlanders TOS should have the Highland, not Lowland, Brigade cap badge! I checked the holes for the cap badge and they match the HB badge.

    Should have caught that much earlier. Right in front of me.

Similar Threads

  1. Mystery Tam O Shanter

    In WW1 Allies: Great Britain, France, USA, etc 1914 - 1918
    01-11-2019, 11:36 AM
  2. Tam O Shanter Balmoral cap

    In Cloth headgear-Western Allies
    11-06-2012, 02:33 PM
  3. 1940s Soviet Flag?

    In Flags, Banners, & Other Regalia
    03-27-2012, 02:37 PM
  4. Whole Stack of 1940s magazines :P

    In Doc's, paper items, photos, propaganda
    02-13-2012, 11:18 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Virtual Grenadier - Down
Display your banner here