Hi sargetom. Hope these help. The "Airborne" piece stitching was a little loose on the left, so I could get a little glimpse under if it helps any. The lining behind the patch had a circular shape, I tried to outline it in red so you could see better. I'm not sure what it means. Maybe a different circular patch was on at sometime? Maybe the loose stitching was poor craftsmanship to "add" the airborne insignia to the jacket?
I found this jacket and the pictures on the website for Blunderbuss antiques and based on the description I am more skeptical due to the seller making assumptions without knowing for sure about the uniform and the actions the supposed paratrooper participated in.. In the text from the site the seller is speculating that the trooper participated in D-Day, Market Garden and the Battle of the Bulge.. Well if he knows all this information shouldn't he know the name of the trooper as well?? Speculation once again with the EAME ribbon with the bronze arrowhead device for D-Day.. (Well,,, what if he jumped in Italy in 43??, those units of the 82nd that jumped into Italy/Sicily would have received an arrowhead device.. or what if he didn't jump in Normandy and the arrowhead device was for Operation Market Garden in Holland.... (You see the speculation here??) Without knowing the facts the seller is being presumptive and without the provenance they are guessing this is what may have happened.. The lack of the jump oval (which in my opinion is significant, as it could properly identify the unit this trooper was in and then some of these speculations could be put to rest,,, maybe....
There are many subtle words that dealers use to lure someone unsuspecting into buying something... In the text below which was taken directly from the site:
The decorations on the tunic suggest: Pure guessing here,, without any facts to back this, this is an opinion,, not factual...
Lesson to be had here:: Ask questions before jumping in.. It may save you some heartache and hard earned cash in the future..
Two things here: 1. You have to be happy with the uniform, don't let us sway you, just offering up thoughts after also doing this and seeing this type of thing happen for "40 plus years"
2. Find someone with a reputation that is rock solid, not someone you haven't really dealt with and don't know that much.. Dealers and others who want to off load things they know they can't provide provenance for are always looking for gullible folks who will believe anything they are told (Not saying that this is your case) but if they can turn a fast buck they will and then when even after saying they will give you your money back they make it harder for you because now you have to justify to them why you want to return the item because of X Y and Z is wrong with the uniform/item.. If they stand by their money back promise it should be with no questions asked on their behalf, not for you to provide a dissertation on all the wrong things...
So there is my thought on this uniform.. Provenance Lost, Speculation as to what campaigns the person was in, no jump oval, just a few red flags for me...
I hope that this helps and doesn't bum you out...I had to learn this stuff the hard way too until I became more adept at asking the right questions to the right people in the collecting realm.. There are "Good People" out there willing to help.. You just have to start with building a good relationship with a few of them and then the rest is gravy...
Smitty
Here is the text of the uniform for sale from the site..
USA WW2 IKE JACKET 82 AIRBORNE
WW2 US Airborne Ike jacket for a Corporal in the 82nd Airborne (All American) Division. Size 32R. Please note all the insignia is original with exception of the paratrooper wings which are replacements. The Laundry number stencilled in lining and on an accompanying handkerchief. Two combat jumps signified by two stars added to the jump wings. The decorations on the tunic suggest a participant in D-day , Market Garden, and the Battle of the Bulge also a Purple Heart recipient. European Theatre of Operations ribbon displays two stars and an invasion arrowhead (D-day). Combat Infantryman's Badge marked Sterling on the rear and with clutch pin backing.. Marksman qualificaton badge with three clasps Marksman, Rifle, Pistol ALL marked Sterling on the rear.. 82nd shoulder patch and arc are in two pieces as original wartime. Includes Presidential Citation, French Croix de Guerre lanyard, Belgian Croix de Guerre lanyard and Dutch Order of Orange lanyard.
The tunic is in very good condition apart from loose stitching on outer portion of each upper pocket. Original label has been removed from inside pocket. One moth hole in left cuff and broken cuff button., tears or stains to note. All buttons and snaps intact and functional. Please note that, even by WW2 standards, this is a very small size and is not sold to fit ! Generally in Grade 9 condition except for the cuff.
Blunderbuss Antiques | Shop
Looking at the ghost images inside the jacket, definitely a round patch was on it at some time...Another red flag...for me...
Smitty
Hi Colttin
I agree with Smitty.
The seller has to provide documented prove ie provenance at the very least and not subjective opinion.
When I saw UK site well that would be akin to an American site selling a WWII Parachute regiment Battle Dress jacket with all insignia and no provenance and they can add a stories as well.
What Smitty and I are wanting to do is help you out and is no criticism of you, we are suspect of what the seller has mentioned and Smitty is more to the point. So let us see the documentation or correspondence.
The sum of all parts does not mean it is legit , it could be put together albeit Smitty has given very good explanation why it just does not fit.
Phill
What was the price of this Ike Jacket ?
People seem to ask drug money for them these days .
In real terms they worth stuff all , dime a dozen , I paid $80 AU for this one 20 years ago.
I think the seller has gone overboard with add ons.
Cheers Rick
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Attachment 1411040
Hi Rick
The 508th oval looks more like a 1950's and not WWII.
WWII ovals were smaller and the outer white border narrow.
What is the history behind this IKE out of curiosity.
Phill
First would like to say about the original jacket that it is very unlikely that it would have been used by a reenactor. A size 32R is REALLY small. The original wearer would have had to be around 5'4" at the tallest I'd say, which isn't crazy out of the ordinary for WW2 period, but for 90's era that seems absurdley small. Also, taking the sellers word on it being in their collection for the last "25 years" is also absurd. When dealing in any high dollar uniforms from rare and/or desireable units, taking the sellers word on something, especially on time, without any real evidence is not smart. Especially considering the time frame of 25 years being just barely before Saving Private Ryan coming out.
Now another thing to say, is that these Airborne uniforms are always super spruced out with all sorts of cords and insignia. The reason for this would have been the parade as already mentioned by others on here, which would bring the missing oval up into question. And while with other uniforms i would say it isn't really conscerning to have mismatched or missing insignia, if this was supposed to be a parade used uniform it seems very unlikely that it would be without an oval. A factor to negate that though would be that the oval and jump wings could have been removed by the veteran for wear on something else, or display in a shadowbox or frame. But that is another thing that couldn't be proved without evidence.
Another thing to keep in mind is that while I wouldn't be super suprised by the patch being sewn a little further away, this is a parade jacket. And the patch being sewn on is just lazy. it is definitley possible the other sewn on insignia is original to the jacket, but all of the pin on is up for question. It's hard to be sure about anything, but I think without provenance this jacket is worth the price of insignia.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________
For the second Jacket, is there any rank insignia? This looks to be another parade jacket by the cords. I also believe the oval is original. I think it is a real jacket to be honest. The wide border ovals first started to be used in the late war/occupation era. and from the looks of it, the oval white border looks to not be of the more mirrowed edge type seen post war. Could I get a closer shot of the oval? I like this one Rick.
Hunt
p.s. here is video footage of the 82nd Airborne's "victory parade". Notice the cords in use. Besides the thick Croix de Guerre cord, you don't really see cords that often. And not really even the Croix de Guerre. They just weren't neccessarily in use by the average soldier trying to get home. When you do see cords though is in the early occupation period and in the parade. There is very rarely a cord and ruptured duck combo.
- - ------- - -
First would like to say about the original jacket that it is very unlikely that it would have been used by a reenactor. A size 32R is REALLY small. The original wearer would have had to be around 5'4" at the tallest I'd say, which isn't crazy out of the ordinary for WW2 period, but for 90's era that seems absurdley small. Also, taking the sellers word on it being in their collection for the last "25 years" is also absurd. When dealing in any high dollar uniforms from rare and/or desireable units, taking the sellers word on something, especially on time, without any real evidence is not smart. Especially considering the time frame of 25 years being just barely before Saving Private Ryan coming out.
Now another thing to say, is that these Airborne uniforms are always super spruced out with all sorts of cords and insignia. The reason for this would have been the parade as already mentioned by others on here, which would bring the missing oval up into question. And while with other uniforms i would say it isn't really conscerning to have mismatched or missing insignia, if this was supposed to be a parade used uniform it seems very unlikely that it would be without an oval. A factor to negate that though would be that the oval and jump wings could have been removed by the veteran for wear on something else, or display in a shadowbox or frame. But that is another thing that couldn't be proved without evidence.
Another thing to keep in mind is that while I wouldn't be super suprised by the patch being sewn a little further away, this is a parade jacket. And the patch being sewn on is just lazy. it is definitley possible the other sewn on insignia is original to the jacket, but all of the pin on is up for question. It's hard to be sure about anything, but I think without provenance this jacket is worth the price of insignia.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________
For the second Jacket, is there any rank insignia? This looks to be another parade jacket by the cords. I also believe the oval is original. I think it is a real jacket to be honest. The wide border ovals first started to be used in the late war/occupation era. and from the looks of it, the oval white border looks to not be of the more mirrowed edge type seen post war. Could I get a closer shot of the oval? I like this one Rick.
Hunt
p.s. here is video footage of the 82nd Airborne's "victory parade". Notice the cords in use. Besides the thick Croix de Guerre cord, you don't really see cords that often. And not really even the Croix de Guerre. They just weren't neccessarily in use by the average soldier trying to get home. When you do see cords though is in the early occupation period and in the parade. There is very rarely a cord and ruptured duck combo.
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