Article about: Hi there guys, I recently purchased a Ike Jacket and when it got to me I found a rifle marksmanship badge in one of the pockets its marked sliver. I want to keep it with the uniform and I am
Hi there guys, I recently purchased a Ike Jacket and when it got to me I found a rifle marksmanship badge in one of the pockets its marked sliver. I want to keep it with the uniform and I am wondering where the correct placement for it should be? I've seen lots of uniforms with it in all kinds of places. I just want to put it in the right place. Also this Ike has four collar disc pins, two US and two signal corps? Have you guys ever seen anything like that before? Should I leave the way it is or change it to how it supposed to be? I'll get some photos up in the next couple of days.
Not sure what the regulation of the time was but you generally see them either mounted just above the top of the left breast pocket and just below the ribbons. Or at the very top edge of the left breast pocket flap. Always centered. If there is two separate marksmanship badges they are spaced evenly across the pocket.
During WWII many small details for uniform regulations were not strictly enforced in the US Army. Which is why you see variations in the placement of insignia and the order and mounting method of ribbons. When you mount the badge 1/8” above or below the top edge of the pocket looks good. Again I’m not sure of the regs in WWII.
As for the double use of collar disks, I assume you mean the two US disks are on the collar and the two signal corps disks are on the lapel? I’ve never seen this on untouched uniforms or in period pictures. Usually done by someone who doesn’t know what they are doing and trying to make it look good. On the officers uniform US pins(not disks) were worn on the collar and branch insignia (ie signal corps, infantry, arty etc and again not disks) were worn on the lapel which is where they probably got the idea you see on your uniform. For the enlisted the US disk was worn on his right side and branch disk on the left. On the lapels the enlisted wore distinctive unit insignia (DUIs).
I will concur with 08SMLE48's evaluation in regards to uniform regulations being loosely adhered to in some cases. Within exception of course. Front line Soldier's and their commands were not too concerned with ribbon placement and other regulations just as long as the Soldiers were not obviously trying to bend the regulations.
IN parade and formation for award ceremonies and other events for high ranking General officer's more care was taken to conform to theater regulations.
Check the Ike jacket for pin marks and you may be able to see where exactly the marksmanship badge went.
In regards to the 2 sets of collars discs.. This was known to happen, very obscurely but it did happen. There are unconfirmed accounts that small units that did not have an official unit crest which would have been on the lapel (which later moved to the shoulders) was the reason a double set of insignia was placed on the uniform. This is just a rumor but one I have heard numerous times.
Also post war in the occupation forces this was done. I have a few wartime images but at the moment I am heading out but I will revisit this later today..
Here is an image of an IKE with double collar discs.
I went back and did some more research and just as my suspicions told me, the wearing of 2 collar discs on the enlisted uniform started in 1947 (post war). The IKE jacket that was pictured above is post war with a Soldier being assigned to the SHAFE (Supreme Headquarters Allied Forces Europe) which was previously SHAPE (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe) (The Difference between the two is that the wartime version of the insignia was black background and post war occupation was blue background). The former wartime service insignia (also known as a combat patch) worn on the right shoulder is for the 15th Army Group, which was activated in Algiers, North Africa in 1943 to plan the invasion of Sicily.
Now back to the collar discs:
The placement of the various insignia goes back to the 1920's when the high collar uniforms changed and the placement of insignia also had to change due to the changing patterns of the uniforms.
The following information and photo is directly quoted from the book: Encyclopedia of United States Army Insignia and Uniforms, by William K. Emerson. pp516-517.
"For those few units whose distinctive insignia consisted of their coat of arms or crest, the insignia went on the collar above the disks, following the high collar concept of the unit insignia being behind the branch disks. In 1928 the army realized that most units would adopt small metal distinctive insignia based on their coat of arms, so the War Department instituted a policy that such unit-distinctive insignia would go on the lapel below the collar disks, where they fit better."
"Almost immediately after the wartime ban on new distinctive insignia was lifted in 1947, the placement of collar and distinctive insignia changed. Officers had worn distinctive insignia on their shoulder loops, because their branch insignia went on the lapels. The 1947 change moved the enlisted men's insignia to the same positions as those used by officers. The distinctive insignia went to the shoulder loops, the US disks (worn in pairs as in the original 1910-12 introductory period) went on the collar, and branch disks (also in pairs) went on the lapels. This overall effort to remove the clothing differences between officers and enlisted men also included the addition of shoulder loops to enlisted men's shirts, making them like those of officers. In October 1951 the army dropped the disk pairs and reverted to the earlier practice of having the US disk on the right collar and the branch disk on the left, but the distinctive insignia stayed on the shoulder loops, thus leaving the lapels bare. This practice has continued".
If you enlarge the photo you will be able to see the placement of the 2 sets of US and branch collar disks on the lapel of the uniform.
Hope this helps you and I hope you post images of the uniform soon..
This was a very brief period in Army History where the regulations and insignia placement as well as NCO Chevron's changed. In this particular photo you will also see the short lived smaller 2 inch chevrons. There were 2 different types of chevrons during this period which identified combat and non-combat Soldiers. In the photo the First Sergeant on the far right is wearing the 2 inch chevrons and they indicate that he is in one of the combat branches of the Army (Infantry, Artillery, Armor, Engineers) Non Combat jobs would have included (Medical, Signal, Finance, etc..)
Effective 1 August 1948: The new enlisted insignia was smaller (2 inches wide) and the colors changed. Combat insignia worn by combat personnel were gold color background with dark blue chevrons, and insignia worn by noncombat personnel were dark blue background with gold color chevrons. This insignia lasted from 1948-1951. There is much debate about the reasons why the chevrons showed clear segregation amongst combat and non combat Soldiers during a time when President Harry S. Truman was trying to end segregation of colored Soldiers in all colored units and integrating the Army into a single fighting force. In 1951 the Army adopted a universal chevron which all Soldiers wore regardless of job description.
The Corporal stripes are for Combat personnel and the First Sergeant Chevrons were worn by non-combat personnel.
Hope this clarifies some things and that everyone learned some history today...
Hey thanks for the wealth of information about it, I am finally getting around to posting some photos, I am thinking that this Ike is probably a post ww2 jacket, the Ike itself is also is from the fall of 1945 and it has the Alaskan Defense Command Patch which was used post war and it matches up with you said about the collar discs. I can't make out the laundry tag quite right maybe somebody else can. I only paid 25 bucks so I am happy either way.
Location for Marksmanship Badge on Uniform?
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