17th Lancers or 17/21st Lancers officers silver motto

[Watchdog]

We had a good discussion on the 17L or 17/21L motto (which is what those regiments call the cap badge) here;

17th/21st Queen Royal Lancers motto

but I thought this one would be better placed on its' own thread and cross referenced.

This is an officers' solid silver motto to either 17th Lancers of 17th/21st Lancers as the design did not change with the amalgamation.

As with many silver badges it is not hallmarked because the stamping of the assay marks would show through to the obverse in most cases. As an alternative the capital letter 'S' is cast into the reverse. The same thing was done with silver plated badges (usually Warrant Officers badges) in which the capital letter 'P' was stamped into the slider which most of these had rather than lugs.

As can be seen from the comparison picture the officers item is slightly smaller than the Other Ranks (enlisted men) version.

As usual all comment or opinion is most welcome.

Regards

Mark

[CBH]

Beautiful Motto you have these Mark, thanks for sharing.
And thanks for the information on officer’s silver badges,I have wondered about there markings.

[PembrokeYeo]

Beautifully made officer's cap badge, Mark.

There is some weight to it too!

Best, Chris.

[Watchdog]

Beautifully made officer's cap badge, Mark.

There is some weight to it too!

Best, Chris.

Yes, I haven't actually weighed it as my scales are broken but it is noticeably heavier than the stamped ORs' version it is compared to.

Regards

Mark

[Jerry B]

very nice to see the silver motto, is the small size for the side cap?

[Watchdog]

very nice to see the silver motto, is the small size for the side cap?

To be truthful Jerry I am not sure regarding the Field Service Cap (side cap) though I have seen FSC with full sized badges but I believe this to be the size introduced in 1945 and worn by officers in the beret. However, I only ever recall seeing 17/21L officers wearing embroidered beret badges during my time in the Army. My example is slightly smaller than the standard badge as the comparison shows but it is far larger than a collar badge and is totally different to the arm badge ('Chad').

Of course the "Skull and bones" is one the most contentious badges ever used by the British Army with regards to types, patterns and materials. Some collectors insist that there was no WWI economy brass issue, typically citing the fact that it is not listed in the very unoffical and out of date "collectors list" in Gaylor but I think it is now generally accepted by experienced collectors that there was a brass strike albeit unpopular with the regiment which may well account for the scarcity of it today. For my part I am totally convinced of the existence of these.

The 17th according to Kipling and King also used a bronze officers badge in the SD cap as well as the silver but the only ones I recall seeing in the hobby have been very new looking ("made yesterday" appearance) so there is room for some research here. It is so obscure that I doubt that even the Regimental Headquarters would easily answer the question.

If anyone here has a definitive answer please post it.

Regards

Mark

[BobS]

Here are my 17th/21st Lancers officer service dress & dress forage caps.
I have not ever removed the motto from either cap.

BobS

[Watchdog]

The frosted one looks to be quite a high quality late (50s - 2000) 20th Century type. If you have never removed it I don't expect you know whether it has an assay (hallmark)?

Further to my explanation of the 'S' (Silver) and 'P' (Plated) marks this badge is one of the few that does have areas thick enough for the stamping of assay marks which would date it to the year of manufacture. Makers labels in the hats themselves will help too.

Regards

Mark