P1907 Hooked Quillon. 2nd Post

[Lugerlout]

Hi All

My second post regarding authenticity, or otherwise, of my P1907 Hooked Quillon, would appreciate your opinions on whether this one could be genuine or a made up example, Thanks in anticipation.

[Kilian]

That looks better than the one in your other post. Is it possible to post some clear close ups of the blade markings and the unit marking on the pommel?

[Lugerlout]

Hi Kilian. Thanks, yes I will take some and post.

[Alex W]

As per my post on your other bayonet, better photos are required to make an informed decision. Based off these photos I would not be confident spending the going rate on it. The date stamp looks odd and the metal of the quillon looks like it differs to the cross guard but this could just be the photos.

How long have you had them, where did you buy them from and how much were they?

[Anderson]

No bend test mark, which would be surprising.

[vegetius]

This one I believe.

[Lugerlout]

Additional photos as requested.

[Kilian]

I would like to see the markings on the blade in more detail: royal cypher, date, broad arrow, bend mark, inspection marks, maker mark. They appear very faint and I cannot make these out on those pictures.



I would also be interested in the width of the cross guard at its widest point, which is near the middle of the blade. Is it 21 or 23 millimeters?

The regimental marking I think is 4th battalion Rifle Brigade. https://oldmilitarymarkings.com/brit_bayo.html

[Alex W]

Theres a few things to look for with the hooked quillon bayonets.

1 - The hooked quillon was removed from newly made bayonets late October 1913, that's not to say that some hooked quillons that had already been manufactured weren't used after this date but I'd be skeptical about any made later which is why the date stamps are important to look at clearly. As Killian has mentioned better photos are required.

2 - Clearance holes were added to the pommel of newly made bayonets January 1916. No hooked quillon should have a clearance hole. In your photo of the pommel on the release catch side, it looks like there is shadowing about the right size to be a filled up clearance hole. However it doesn't look like its also on the other side and the mark looks too centralised so that aspect should be ok.

3 - Rework stamps are important to look at as if the bayonet was reworked in 1914 or later the hooked quillon should have been removed. Also if the bayonet was reworked in 1916 or later the bayonet should have clearance hole. Better photos of the broad arrow side of the blade with inspection marks is required. In saying this, I'm sure there were anomalies where armourers forgot to remove quillons and create clearance holes during rework but I'd be skeptical about it.

4 - The quillon itself. Dodgy ones that have been poorly attached are easy to spot but some are quite well done. You need to look closely and potentially use a normal P1907 cross guard to compare where it ends. Is there any bulging, cracks or lines. Is there any change of colour, wear or metal composition around where the standard cross guard would end. I can see difference in the metal but is it just your photographs / lighting? Apparently you can test by x-ray or by ear with a tuning fork (good luck with both of these methods).

The problem is that there is so much money in these ($1000-1500 AUD) that its worth spending the time to modify if you have the skills and there are some very good fakes out there. Even with better photos, it might take someone having a look in hand to give you a proper answer. At the moment I'm not willing to write yours off as fake but i still wouldn't be confident spending my own money on it.

Alex

[Alex W]

One other thing I've just been looking at is the actual shape of the hooked quillon. I only have Enfield made ones to compare to but yours doesn't match mine. My Enfield ones have a rounder tip whereas yours is more pointed and the body of the hook is more contoured where as yours seems more flat. Would be good to see the manufacturer stamp on yours and compare yours to a known genuine example from that manufacturer.