Is anything about this SS Visor Cap original?...

[dzyner]

Thanks so much for all of your help and wisdom, as usual, Friedrich!

Question for you...

As Bob mentioned early in this thread, it is of course good to study the examples in this forum (many posted by you, kindly enough), but I'm not sure I agree with his statement that the conclusion about the posted cap should be obvious and here's why...

In my limited study there are quite a few variations with these caps, including bill type/material, leather band color/style, liner material, diamond (some with the SS some without, some gold, some silver, etc), some are "teller" style while others are the more modern peaked style. While some of these variations are quite subtle, they do indeed exist. In fact one of the only true constants I've noticed among all variations of NCO caps is the center chin strap buckle.

My question is this... Are there a set of "rules" (for lack of a better term) that you would apply to SS cap collecting where is a cap deviated from these rules it can be deemed as fake? This may be tough to answer.

Thanks again!
Dzyner

[bsiwula1]

Hello Dynzer. I would start by looking here concerning fabric and construction. Caps IMO are unlike most all other areas of TR collecting. Unfortunately there's no hard and fast rules one can apply to determine wether or not an item is of period, at least to my limited knowledge. But as FB has shown and stated time and again these pieces were made by highly skilled Craftsmen and women for very discerning customers. The quality of a cap can shine through as original or reveal itself as a fake quickly. To be sure there are rather good fakes out there. But I feel your cap example was made in an era when information wasn't either readily available or accurate probably in the 60's and could of very well been passed off as real at one time or another simply because of the lack of knowledge. We are fortunate indeed to have the luxuries of the resources available here between Wim, FB, Bob and those dedicated to the study of these items and who share information willingly. As stated studying and handling original period examples will advance your understanding greatly. Even if it s a heer or luft or a civil cap there is alot of information one cap pick up from these objects regardless of SS or not. Best regards.

Brian

Types Materials for SS Visor Hats

[ErWeSa]

Thanks so much for all of your help and wisdom, as usual, Friedrich!

Question for you...

As Bob mentioned early in this thread, it is of course good to study the examples in this forum (many posted by you, kindly enough), but I'm not sure I agree with his statement that the conclusion about the posted cap should be obvious and here's why...

In my limited study there are quite a few variations with these caps, including bill type/material, leather band color/style, liner material, diamond (some with the SS some without, some gold, some silver, etc), some are "teller" style while others are the more modern peaked style. While some of these variations are quite subtle, they do indeed exist. In fact one of the only true constants I've noticed among all variations of NCO caps is the center chin strap buckle.

My question is this... Are there a set of "rules" (for lack of a better term) that you would apply to SS cap collecting where is a cap deviated from these rules it can be deemed as fake? This may be tough to answer.

Thanks again!
Dzyner

I do not have F.-B.'s expertise but this case seems clear enough. Apart from the fact that the fabric as well of the body of the cap as well of the lining does not correspond to period pieces, I marked the most obvious points, that break the "rules" of original caps with arrows:



Lots of stitches where there should be none/different ones. F.-B. once gave another hint: fabric was quite expensive at the time - wasteful use of fabric therefore is always suspicious (see where the lining is stiched to the black fabric - one wouldn't have waisted so much of it for the inside of a cap) and many other things.



You may believe the experts (and I don't pretend to be one of them). When they say this cap is fake, it is.

[BOB COLEMAN]

The cap in question has far too many variations from a genuine SS cap. As SS material is the most widely faked items in 3rd Reich collecting, it is always best to stay clear of such things. As FB's experience, I have handled and studied many black caps and for the reasons previously cited, there is no reason to even consider such a piece. Few collectors have owned or handled multiple black caps and therefore do not have the in hand experience.

[bsiwula1]

A quick side question to the one currently being discussed. Prior to BenVK's departure he had once pictured a dissected black dress cap. This image showed the materials and construction methods extremely well. It s perhaps not the Rosetta Stone to the question at hand, but was a informative image to study. Does anyone know where that image could be attained or is it proprietary, copyrighted? I ve never been able to find it elsewhere. Thank you.

Brian

[Friedrich-Berthold]

"Question for you...

As Bob mentioned early in this thread, it is of course good to study the examples in this forum (many posted by you, kindly enough), but I'm not sure I agree with his statement that the conclusion about the posted cap should be obvious and here's why...

In my limited study there are quite a few variations with these caps, including bill type/material, leather band color/style, liner material, diamond (some with the SS some without, some gold, some silver, etc), some are "teller" style while others are the more modern peaked style. While some of these variations are quite subtle, they do indeed exist. In fact one of the only true constants I've noticed among all variations of NCO caps is the center chin strap buckle.

My question is this... Are there a set of "rules" (for lack of a better term) that you would apply to SS cap collecting where is a cap deviated from these rules it can be deemed as fake? This may be tough to answer."


I have made some 25,000 posts on this site, many of which are concerned with details of black SS peaked caps. This data does not really lend itself
to a check list. Or, I am not the person to make such a list, even if somehow I do look at certain aspects of an item to make an assessment.
Someone with a different mind from my own and a different attitude to history could proffer a doctrine, but doctrine becomes dogma,
and I am an enemy of all dogma.
The most important criterion is the worksmanship of the cap, itself, which is a subject that causes much dismay.
Within the heading of worksmanship or workwomanship, (which is actually the case here..) there is a range of normal variations.
I have included many examples of my own as an illustration. The early caps are often more flat, of course, than the saddle caps, but
there are also saddle shaped caps of "early" make and so forth.
The other aspect is the chronology of the cap, i.e. where does the item fit in the continuum more or less of 1932 until 1940 or 1941 or so.
The act of setting the item in this continuum is a problematic task, but I do it the best of my ability.
Wim Saris has made this work much easier.

I have no check list for you. These caps have been faked for decades, and I have collected them since the 1960s.
It is only in the recent past that the fakes have swerved much closer to the original because of the internet.
Hence, I cannot offer you a set of rules. Others on the less enlightened site were endlessly offering rules, for which
the exceptions to these rules could be proffered in a matter of seconds, and over and over again.
When I assess a thing, it is the result of decades of study, and I am not at all sure that I am right in even most cases.
However, I struggle to offer evidence for my generalization.Attachment 1092251

[Friedrich-Berthold]

The cap in question has far too many variations from a genuine SS cap. As SS material is the most widely faked items in 3rd Reich collecting, it is always best to stay clear of such things. As FB's experience, I have handled and studied many black caps and for the reasons previously cited, there is no reason to even consider such a piece. Few collectors have owned or handled multiple black caps and therefore do not have the in hand experience.

Bob has collected these items since the 1950s. It was his collection that was enshrined in the Bozich book of 1968! Thanks for the wise observations.

[BOB COLEMAN]

My first black officer SS cap was obtained in 1960 and was a fake with real insignia. The insignia was genuine as there was a post war plethora of genuine insignia of all types. In retrospect, it was a poor fake but it also was a lesson learned. As I said previously, study and more study is the only rule to enlightenment. There is no easy path to the end means.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

"....Was there a given timeframe for the transition over? I do believe pre 36 the kepi was the standard dress headgear for the SA especially in the early days and prior to their dissolution. The WH and other military visors seemed to more often than not also have the vulcanfiber visors. I assume once the RZM standard came into effect, it was more feasible for cap munufacturers to produce caps for all civil and military branches; at the volume necessary to keep up with demand. I also assume throughout the entirety of existence a SS man could purchase a standard issue cap or prefer to buy a private purchase cap provided it conformed to organizational standards. So I guess the question is was the leather visor the prominent variety in the early days of the SS? Thanks for any clarification. And as always kindest regards.

Brian..."


Leather peaks on SS caps were prohibited in 1938. I have never actually seen what was in the 1934 specification to standardize black SS peaked caps,
other than the caps themselves and so forth and multiple references elsewhere to these specifications. I do know that in the 1934 RZM specification for the NSDAP PL cap, a leather peak is mentioned, and the army field cap for officers of the wartime ('14-'18) is mentioned as a model. In my experience, cap makers licensed by the RZM also made civil items of headwear, but not in 100% cases. SS men were generally responsible for their own uniform, unless the person was in the parts of the SS on the state budget, as evolved, and were issued a uniform. Many "early" SS caps I own or have seen have leather peaks, but surely
not all of them. In later times, i.e. with certain cap makers, i.e. the Hannover one whose name escapes me, in the purchase of a
luxury extra cap, one could have a leather peak added for an extra price.
I am not sure that persons at the time even noticed any of the details of these things to which we are so affixed.
Thanks for the interest and the kind words. I do not know much, but I have specialized in these things, such as they are.Attachment 1092194Attachment 1092195Attachment 1092196Attachment 1092197Attachment 1092198Attachment 1092199Attachment 1092200Attachment 1092201Attachment 1092202

NSDAP caps of "early" make with the leather peak, which, to my mind, was either the model for or modeled on the SS cap.

[Friedrich-Berthold]

The peaked cap in the SS appeared in the course of 1932, and that for the PL of the NSDAP at a date specified by Wim, but years after that of the SS.....