Early SS Visor

**Aldo** · 04-06-2022, 11:34 PM

I posted this cap on the SS forum and realized I should have posted it here for authentication. Sorry for the double post but I need help with this one.

This early SS cap has come up for sale and it's unconventional to say the least. It has been discussed on the WAF and deemed inconclusive. I've been studying the photo's of the cap and comparing it to our own archives and FB's posts and nearly convinced myself of authenticity but I still have doubts.

I would think it's a pre 1934 cap and the maker did exist as per the listing posted by Christian below. Hut-Helg Elsi Frau. Herrenart (men's style ?) and matching address and telephone number. There is also the question of whether or not a cap of this nature would have all this printed information regarding the early rzm markings license no. It is possible since the rzm has been around in it's early "proto" form since 1928 prior to it becoming stricter in the regulations put forth in 1934. At least that's what I understood when F-B explained it more eloquently than I.

The insignia could be original to the cap or not who knows but both look like fine originals to me. The extra holes on each side were possibly created by someone sticking on a wreath as suggested on the WAF or some other idiotic attempt to pimp it up with insignia. The wool material concerns me a bit because it does not look like the "melton" wool seen on many early caps including my Fewegla visor, examples below. The cap in question has a more of a visible texture.

Examples of melton wool below

There is plenty of evidence that the grommets existed on these early caps and the inside of the rivets on this particular cap look right. It concerns me that you can see the yellow / gold lining through the vent holes. I don't see evidence of the lining being replaced but maybe I'm missing something. Here are all the under the hood pics

This one may be a leap of faith but I'm inclined to pull the trigger. Please I welcome all observations and opinions. Thank you for your time.

Regards, Al
WAF Link: Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums

Here are a few interesting threads which address the diversity of early cap interiors and lack of conventional markings. It also mentions the use of the melton type wool. While nothing in these threads validate the cap in question it demonstrates the difficulty of deciphering the less conventional caps. I am truly in need of an expert like F-B.

Black SS cap w/o RZM/SS marks

Ultra Early SS caps

SS Visor Hat

**Espenlaub Militaria** · 04-06-2022 11:34 PM

We also buy and trade your items and full collections!

**ErWeSa** · 04-07-2022, 07:08 PM

I am not specialist enough - if at all - to make a judgement, just some observations. Perhaps you've found it yourself, there is a cap BenVK bought back in 2009 which was given thumbs up by F.-B. among others which seems to have been made of the same fabric:

Nice Black Visor from Ebay!

Due to the sweatband it seems to be a Clemens Wagner cap.

Here is another one, same/similar fabric, with air-vents, also given thumbs up:

Early SS Black Visor

One of the makers which used a zig-zag stitch to sew in the sweatshields I know of is Alkero (another would be Litto which here is out of the question, yet another would be Prediger which I would exclude as well).

So much to the pros. The cons (which might not apply but for lack of better knowlege I'd nevertheless like to state them): bill/visor/peak however you'd like to call it lacks the cross-hatch pattern on its underneath (and doesn't have the RZM-stamp which could be due to early manufacture), what about a RZM-tag ? (could also be due to early manufacture), the letters K St are upside down (could of course be due to personal preferance of the owner). One last point: the lining is held both by a machine-sewn seam at the top AND by hand-sewn stiches at the bottom of the centerband.
I am very sorry F.-B. can't help, this would have been a case for THE specialist for black caps.

**Aldo** · 04-07-2022, 07:34 PM

Thank you for taking the time to post your observations. In the first thread posted by BenVK, the cap initially looks like melton wool but upon closer inspection I can see it's the same type as the cap I posted. that's a very good sign.

In that second thread the cap exhibits the same wool type as the one I posted. F-B specifically states that he does not observe the quality of wool he would expect but needed further in hand inspection to be sure. So that's inconclusive

With respect to the stamps, tags and crosshatching, that can all be explained by early manufacture and factors as explained in the threads I posted. I do notice the stitching in the liner as you explained but I'm not familiar with cap manufacture fully. Is that not something you've ever seen and could it mean the liner was replaced? Thanks again for all your insights.

**ErWeSa** · 04-07-2022, 08:28 PM

I know that several cap producers used this method (and there are some examples of this for early black caps on the forum), what surprised me was the "doube stichting" - normally it wasn't necessary to fix the lining with yet another (handsewn) stiches.

As seen here (post # 6):

A little help

I posted other examples elswhere, just couldn't find them so far.