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Exhausted Searches Performed: HJ Flag Construction Types

Article about: Good Morning Fine Gentlemen! Firstly, my sincere thanks and appreciation to those that have assisted in my quests to collect fine examples these past couple of years. Thank you very much. Ha

  1. #1

    Default Exhausted Searches Performed: HJ Flag Construction Types

    Good Morning Fine Gentlemen!

    Firstly, my sincere thanks and appreciation to those that have assisted in my quests to collect fine examples these past couple of years. Thank you very much.

    Have an opportunity to pick up a few more flags and pennants and can't locate examples of HJ flags that have the diamond design with swastika printed / silk-screened on cotton. The flag in question appears to be a one piece design. I see examples of a multi-piece construction that have been sewn on. Were HJ flags produced that were not a multi-piece construction?

    The 30 pages on Hitler Jugend Forum provided outstanding examples and reads of items like armbands, buckles, badges and pins. Hopes are someone with far more knowledge than myself can enlighten me.

    Always impressed and always thankful for all information I have received and read while a member of this fine forum.

    -Von Ritt

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  3. #2

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    Good day Von Ritt,

    Hope you are well.. Will you be able to get photographs of the flags/pennants you are looking to purchase?

    In the meantime I will look and see if I can find any information in my HJ reference books (Not sure if you have any or not).

    The HJ flag that I have in my collection is a 2 piece example and to be quite honest I have not delved deeper into HJ flags or how they were produced...but I will see what I can dig up on the subject.

    I have some business I have to attend to this morning so I will get back with you a little later in the day..

    Smitty

  4. #3

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    Exhausted Searches Performed: HJ Flag Construction Types
    Exhausted Searches Performed: HJ Flag Construction Types
    Exhausted Searches Performed: HJ Flag Construction Types
    Exhausted Searches Performed: HJ Flag Construction Types
    Exhausted Searches Performed: HJ Flag Construction Types
    Exhausted Searches Performed: HJ Flag Construction Types
    Exhausted Searches Performed: HJ Flag Construction Types
    Exhausted Searches Performed: HJ Flag Construction Types
    Exhausted Searches Performed: HJ Flag Construction Types

    Smitty,
    So kind of you to reply sir! Thank you for your time and efforts AGAIN!

    Hopefully I can acquire more pics later today. Will post any extras if received. For now, this is the full size, full spread of the HJ flag. Approximately 6 feet by 10 feet. There are some areas that the red ink touched the white cloth prior to drying.

    Hope this helps a bit. I will have a definite answer on acquiring the lot of 5 sometime Monday morning. IF lucky to purchase, better and more pics will be added!

    The pennant and small naval flag will be posted in the appropriate sub-forum if I'm able to acquire.

    Ever so thankful!

    - Von Ritt

  5. #4

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    VR,

    I don't see any issues with any of these flags or pennants..

    I was looking at the HJ flag for some time, and I believe this to be a good printed flag. The reproduction printed HJ flags that I have seen all have one thing in common.. The header edge of the flag (this would be the reinforced side that would fly closest to the flag pole) are all in white. If I am seeing this flag correctly, the header edge of this flag is the combination of the top red, middle white and bottom red which would indicate one single piece of cloth that was printed and the edge was then rolled over and sewn to accommodate a hanging pole. I would speculate that this would have been used as a vertical hanging flag and based on size would have hung outside a building perhaps a HQ or an office..

    I like all of them...

    Smitty

  6. #5

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    Welcomed information Sir Smitty! I like your conculsion.

    Please recommend a reference book I should purchase that would assist in my determination of authenticity. More importantly, a book that will educate me on the things like maker, factory location, troop usage, etc.

    Fingers crossed my offer will be accepted.

    Moving forward, the U-boat pennants are very attractive to me. Not just for the design, but, for the back history. The RAD design is something I find to my liking too.

    Thank you so much for giving these flags and pennants a good once over.

    - Von Ritt

  7. #6

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    VR,

    There are numerous books that discuss flags, many of them just the details of the organizations themselves and not the specifics and sadly they don't really discuss authenticity per-say..

    One book that is fairly decent is "Flags of the Third Reich" by Brian L. Davis. The book has good color line drawings of numerous flags and they are accompanied by black and white period photos. He does go into some detail about the flag orders and ceremonies and there are a few pages showing the manufacture of flags with some decent photos of the flags being sewn.

    Another rather old book but one of the best for its time is: Flags and Banners of the Third Reich by A.S. Walker. This book is from the early 1970s but again this was a leading book at the time since no other books on the subject had been attempted in a single volume. Most of what had been written about flags at this time was included in short chapters about a specific organization.

    I had to look in 3 separate books about the Hitler Youth specifically to see if there was any information about the printed HJ flag. Again there was some information about the design and actual dimensions taken from German records but no other mention of materials used or other attributes.

    A few other observations to take into consideration, and this is only my opinion as others may agree or disagree with what I am about to say.

    If I see something of interest that someone is selling I will try to obtain as much information about how the item was obtained prior to purchase. These flags for example: where did they come from? were they bring backs from a veteran? Now this is where it could get a little difficult to determine, so you have to know what you are looking at, have some basic background information about the items first and then go by what the seller is telling you.. The old adage "Buy the item not the story" is very important, especially if where this item came from can't be found.

    Something else to consider.. Reference books are just that, a reference, they don't always hold all the answers and in some cases when these books were written 30, 40, 50 years ago the information was not as detailed and yes there are reproductions in reference books so you must also look at that information and make an educated analysis to determine authenticity.

    There are collectors who specialize in many of the items we post here, even they have been duped from time to time but experience, talking to others who share the same interests, seeing and touching originals up close are some of the best ways to determine the authenticity.

    Reproductions come in all shapes and sizes, but here is also something to consider,, Larger size flags like the HJ flag that is pictured there are some questions you have to ask yourself..

    1. Due to size of this particular flag, would it be worth making a copy of it to sell? People who reproduce items and make copies to deceive do their research and troll these websites trying to obtain information and detailed photos in order to make near flawless copies..

    2. Many collectors who collect flags will mostly tell you that the bigger the flag, the harder it is to display, which is true,, so that right there will tell you that those wanting to make a profit will stay away from the larger objects such as the larger flags in some cases.. This is not always the case though as I have seen many large SS flags reproduced and sold as originals as well as fake maker stampings on larger Kriegsmarine flags to lure in a buyer. The more stamps on the header the more authentic, right?? Wrong...
    You also have to look at the organization itself.. The Hitler Youth was a very large organization with many sizes and types of flags and other insignia, most will want to collect the smaller personal items such as the armbands, tinnies, uniforms that were worn by the children, the flags represent their organization but not the individual so many steer clear of the larger flags and things (unless there is specific provenance,,, for example "my unit captured this HJ flag after a brief fight with HJ members guarding this crossroads in Germany in April 1945"..."We took the flag from this large building that my have been the local HJ Headquarters"...

    I was looking at a smaller HJ flag from an online auction that sold (I don't know how much) But there were so many red flags,, It had maker stamps, it had an RZM stamp, it had dimensions, it had a state stamp, it had a HJ battalion stamp.. so to the unsuspecting person who has not researched, they just bought would could have been an original flag at one point, but it was tampered with by adding useless stamps to increase the prices..

    If you have an opportunity and you have a museum near you that has military items in it, give them a call and see if they are willing to let you see some flags they have in storage. In many cases the directors and curators of museums will let the public view artifacts that they have in storage and on exhibit. You may be able to get some up close hands on experience with some of the Third Reich flags and other items that were donated to the museum by veterans that brought the items home with them.

    Prior to the COVID outbreak I would receive a few calls a week in order for someone to come to the museum I am the curator at to look through the archival documents and photos for research on a particular subject they were writing a dissertation on or a book about. We just needed a little advance notice so we could prepare for the visit. We would also given the individuals some instructions on handling the documents and provide them with gloves and we would be there in the room to assist.

    Back in February this year I had someone come to the museum to see a captured ISIS Flag that they wanted to do an article about, so prior to the visit I had the flag laid out on one of our large map tables and he was able to examine and photograph the flag..

    So check into setting up an appointment at a local museum..

    I will close with this:

    I am not an expert, far from it, I have been fooled numerous times as I am sure many of the other seasoned collectors here have as well.. I admit my faults and improve on them, I learn from my mistakes in order to pass my knowledge to other collectors. The main purpose of sharing this information with others is that no one person has all the information, bits of information here and there come together to solve the puzzles that we so often find ourselves trying to piece together with the artifacts we obtain.. The pleasure in doing this is to find answers to questions with fact and references to support...

    I am very interested in seeing more photos of the Water Sports Flag (Anchor with swastika). This was a flag used by at all civilian German Water Sports activities (Wassersportflagge) and boating activities. They were only flown on private boats and non commercial fishing boats.

    Hope some of this information helps..

    Best regards stay safe

    Smitty

  8. #7

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    Evening Smitty,
    Your book suggestions are ones I have seen online for sale. You're right about having multiple books on hand. I plan to pickup a few of the books soon. Very good advice Smitty. Everything you said makes perfect sense.

    By spending some time on this excellent forum, the members have experience/exposure and have shared some of the 'red flags' you brought up. I have taken note of all attributes mentioned on items that are of interest to me.

    Back stories associated with items I buy are very important to me. The families sometimes have excellent history with photos and letters. Some families only have a unit/division their relative served with. I have a few connections that have bought from families and they sometimes have let a few items go so they can step up their collection.

    What town is your museum?

    My hopes are the seller will contact me sometime tomorrow with an acceptance of my offer. You can count on me providing multiple detail-oriented pics of all items.

    All your information has helped tremendously and hope to continue to receive. I know this is an education and I will never be an expert.

    Will check in again tomorrow. Thanks Smitty Sir!

    - Von Ritt

  9. #8

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    VR,

    I am in the United States at the 1st Armored Division and Fort Bliss museum..

    Smitty

  10. #9

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    Evening Gentlemen,
    Sad to say my offer was not accepted. Hopeful and positive more will be found, the hunt continues.
    - Von Ritt

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