Fantastic thread thanks Chris
Best regards
John
Fantastic thread thanks Chris
Best regards
John
No problem, I knew I had commented on a similar Tk,
Cheers
I don't know how Friedrich keeps track of his vast collection of items and images, but I just caught an unmarked skull insitu on another cap the pierced eyes and nose type from a recent thread. I don't know if this has already been noted in the past, remind if it has.
499/41 - Fritz Zimmermann Totenkopf fake or real?
INGWE.....Welcome to the FORUM. I too share an interest in these TOTENKOPF visor cap skull abzeichen.
While F-B should never remove this skull to examine the reverse, keep in mind in your searches that the reverse has a "FINGERPRINT" of the tooling that helps separate the fakes from those that are indeed real. REAL TOTENKOPF have been stamped/struck/coined while fakes are usually (but not always) cast.
Even though this thread is discussing the "closed eye" variation, the F-B normal production version fits in. The blank coined in this case was probably a lower weight blank and the dies may also not have been adjusted to close enough to fully eject all chaff from the eyes and nose.
Below is an exceptionally bold strike found in the thread started by RORY 12-15-2012. See post #5 by CARLSSON 1982. Of course, we must overlook the overall wear and physical damage to the nose. In this case the machine operator was pushing the envelope, so to speak, risking damage to both the obverse and reverse dies. It is a Zimmermann RZM 499/41.
I'm pretty sure if he removed it it would be blank and of the stamped kind you mentioned, on the front it has the physical hallmarks of the unknown maker from what I have learned on this forum, particularly from Sid (Carlsson1982) and others. It has the straight teeth and curved blank top right bone plus only two sutures near the right eye instead of three like the other makers. Compare with this one, which I now own, which Sid used to own himself I believe at some point.
Unmarked Deschler TK eyecandy
It looks like FB did post that cap but at an obscure angle, nevertheless I think the one I posted here by FB is far better and detailed for the topic of the "unknown make" in question as a whole.
Unmarked Deschler TK eyecandy
Just another note this thread has even better detailed images by FB of his closed eyed TK on cap
Last edited by Ingwe; 11-04-2017 at 09:26 AM.
INGWE.....eye candy indeed with no calories. What a way to start the morning and I learned from you to note the sutures. Thanks, Doug.
.....
AFTERTHOUGHT.....the blank I mentioned was the slug of metal to be coined, but since we are both researching skulls I also understand that your eye candy has a blank reverse with no markings. Hence, unknown maker to be determined. While it might be clear to us, other members may misinterpret.
AFTERTHOUGHT #2....this may have been a "sweetheart" cheaper version not authorized to be used on RZM certified equipment. This would explain finding it on album covers and holsters as well. But in a pinch, I bet that the visor cap makers would use it as well.
AFTERTHOUGHT #3.....I am more confident calling the OP skull a "sweetheart" because of its labor saving prong attachment.
Last edited by stakeside; 11-05-2017 at 06:39 PM.
INGWE.....it is very uncharacteristic of me to shoot from the hip without methodical research, so take this with a good beer.
The helmadler for sturzhelm (crash helmet) underwent a transitional period in 1934. Before 1934 adler were made and put into use without RZM certification. The reverse was blank. The RZM stamped adler finally showed up in crash helmets dated 1936/1937, but there are instances where the same tooling may have been used before and after 1934. The only difference was the addition of the RZM logo to the reverse die.
Here is my attempt at a BSIWULA1 worthy juxtaposition of a DESCHLER RZM 52 with your PERHAPS DESCHLER. Granted that the camera angles as well as condition are not too favorable for comparison, but it just might be a reasonable assumption that the very same tooling stamped both examples. The RZM 52 marking has been added in an uncharacteristic location compared to later military contracts. If so, a chronology might be established.
.....
Of note is the distinctive but subtle wave to the upper rim of the eye socket viewer's right.
RBMINIS....Thank you for the two for one lesson this morning. We shall see if I have followed your lesson well.....or.....FLUNKED.
I agree that this is an accepted location and mark for early RZM 52 skulls. However the key word here is EARLY and I am glad that you pointed it out. I am suggesting to INGWE that his unmarked PERHAPS DESCHLER was made even earlier, before the 1934 RZM directive. I suggest that the very same tooling that made his was altered to make this RZM 52.
I used the word "UNCHARACTERISTIC" because the modification to the reverse die was probably done in haste. Afterwards, DESCHLER and the others usually added such marks to the ?forehead?
AFTERTHOUGHT...... or to the reverse of the forehead to be more precise.
Last edited by stakeside; 11-06-2017 at 09:07 PM. Reason: NIT-PICKER
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