Picture with Hitler, Goring, Himmler, and Strasser Signatures - 1929 - Fake?

[MisaRisa87]

I have the below picture that allegedly contains the signatures of Adolf Hitler, Hermann Goring, Heinrich Himmler, and Gregor Strasser. Hitler allegedly wrote "1929" below the name as well. It is supposed to be a picture of early nazi supporters. I am curious about the opinions of the members of the forum, as to whether it seems to be authentic or not. The vendor has multiple other signed documents and pictures I would like to purchase, as well as plated silver utensils purported to be from Hitler and Goring's personal trains.



I bought this item from a vendor at a show. They claim it comes from the “Heinrich Jurs signature collection” (who is purported to be a general in the Waffen-SS), which was supposed to be purchased from Jurs’ family by Jerry Swallow. I have found very little about Jerry, other than a few articles from Droog Magazine that suggest he sells fakes. I am uncertain of the reliability of that website. When I brought this up to the vendor I purchased from, he said that “high-end dealers are jealous of Jerry having purchased the Jurs collection”, and that he has been working with him for 20 years without an issue. There is one other post on this forum that I could find, regarding something Jerry sold to another member here.

I sent the picture in to an “autograph certification company”, PAAS Certifications, online over email only, for a very cheap price, and they suggested that they do not believe it to be real. However, they would not provide any further information regarding why they think so. The company has horrible yelp reviews, and it was only an online inspection, so I am uncertain if I can trust their certification. Additionally, they usually deal with sports and pop stars autographs, so this may very well be out of their area of expertise.

I have worked in law for my entire life, so I like to think I can get a decent reading on people. The vendor came across as honest and upfront. I would like to purchase other items from them, but am unsure how confident I can be. They do have silver plated utensils that are purported to be from Hitler and Goring’s personal trains – however, as they are plated, it seems that it is entirely likely that they could be faked.

Any insight that can be provided would be enormously helpful as I decide how to move forward. I, personally, believe it is likely a fake. Thank you!

[martinradwin]

Of the big 3, only Hitler's signature changed significantly over time. Himmler and Goering's monikers remained remarkably consistent throughout the years only changing by the shortening of the early full signature. On quick inspection, the Hitler and Goering passes initial scrutiny on morphology and flow with no obvious signs of forgery. However, I can't get past the Himmler which, IMO is inconsistent in morphology and flow compared to his normally consistent and sharply angled peaks and valleys. The ending...er....typically appears as successive "W's" with a horizontal outstroke and period. The outstroke in this example is down with an underlining tail. One bad signature sadly ruins any chances for the others. See what everyone else thinks for consensus.

[BlackCat1982]

I have the below picture that allegedly contains the signatures of Adolf Hitler, Hermann Goring, Heinrich Himmler, and Gregor Strasser. Hitler allegedly wrote "1929" below the name as well. It is supposed to be a picture of early nazi supporters. I am curious about the opinions of the members of the forum, as to whether it seems to be authentic or not. The vendor has multiple other signed documents and pictures I would like to purchase, as well as plated silver utensils purported to be from Hitler and Goring's personal trains.



I bought this item from a vendor at a show. They claim it comes from the “Heinrich Jurs signature collection” (who is purported to be a general in the Waffen-SS), which was supposed to be purchased from Jurs’ family by Jerry Swallow. I have found very little about Jerry, other than a few articles from Droog Magazine that suggest he sells fakes. I am uncertain of the reliability of that website. When I brought this up to the vendor I purchased from, he said that “high-end dealers are jealous of Jerry having purchased the Jurs collection”, and that he has been working with him for 20 years without an issue. There is one other post on this forum that I could find, regarding something Jerry sold to another member here.

I sent the picture in to an “autograph certification company”, PAAS Certifications, online over email only, for a very cheap price, and they suggested that they do not believe it to be real. However, they would not provide any further information regarding why they think so. The company has horrible yelp reviews, and it was only an online inspection, so I am uncertain if I can trust their certification. Additionally, they usually deal with sports and pop stars autographs, so this may very well be out of their area of expertise.

I have worked in law for my entire life, so I like to think I can get a decent reading on people. The vendor came across as honest and upfront. I would like to purchase other items from them, but am unsure how confident I can be. They do have silver plated utensils that are purported to be from Hitler and Goring’s personal trains – however, as they are plated, it seems that it is entirely likely that they could be faked.

Any insight that can be provided would be enormously helpful as I decide how to move forward. I, personally, believe it is likely a fake. Thank you!

Your last comment is the right one in my opinion also. Certificates of authentification mean nothing and for me none of the signatures on your photograph are original. The right decision is to walk away.

[Witt]

I mostly agree with what Martin said. All of them are hand signed so we are not dealing with printed signatures or stamps or facsimiles. The Hitler one I thought stands a chance albeit a signature that was done often in many forms and faked in many forms. However I do not like the one by Gregor as the eszett really does not look like any form that he did, and the initial St- looks slightly off.
Himmler seemed to be fairly consistent with a large out-stroke on the -r in his signature. It is seen on so many of his signatures while it is less pronounced on others. This one has the -r end by being swept underneath the preluding portion. An example very similar to this is included as a Himmler signature on Wikipedia and without any context towards its origin, is not reputable to me at all. A signed book in the same manner was sold by Germania International whom I would not given any more acclaim to than I would to anyone on Wiki.

This is purported to be from the Heinrich Jürs collection. He was a Gruppenführer killed by locals outside of his hunting lodge near Bach in Austria. There apparently was multiple albums of signed photos, postcards, news clippings, and other paper items although they were sourced from the woodwork by someone who may not have an honorable reputation. Many were recently auctioned on emedals for varying realizations including many at both polar ends.


As for the vendor’s other items, I would want to post any of them here like you have before they were acquired. One fraudulent item would not indefinitely tarnish their other items, but on the other hand it could all be junk. The other paper items, bar them all being from the Jürs collection, could stand a chance as could the tableware although the latter can and is a simpler article to doctor up.

[MisaRisa87]

I appreciate both of your opinions. The tail under Himmler is exactly what stuck me, as I could not find any original, or even forgery, signatures that had that. Quite a shame, as I was certainly hoping to pick up more signatures. I suppose it's possible it could still be original, with the picture being taken away from him by the person wanting it signed, causing the pen to run underneath, or some other reason. But the more likely scenario is that it is a forgery. If anyone else has opinions, that would be appreciated as well.

[MisaRisa87]

Witt - thank you for replying. I will post some other items he is offering to see the opinions here. Unfortunately, I believe all of the items are purported to come from the "Heinrich Jurs Collection". Aside from the silverware, of course. I will post them here, as well as separate threads.

Hitler, Goring, and Rudolf Hess signatures:



Reinhard Heydrich signature:



Dr. Robert Ley signature (not a great photo):


Silverware (DR from Hitler's Train, silver plated 90, marked 225 // DR from Goring's Train, silver plated 90, marked 233 & 243):

[Gwar]

How about posting even another thread on the same subject ?

[MisaRisa87]

Since it is regarding a completely different set, and silverware that isn't even for this section of the forum, it seemed prudent to start a different thread. Is that not correct?