Authentic or fake?

[AZkid]

Thank you for going into some detail Dave as it helps. Another question, does anyone know how many SS daggers were made? I'm talking only authentic daggers of course. I have read there were 3 million SA daggers made but nowhere can I find the number of SS daggers produced. I have read that at it's peak there were 250,000 SS members. So is it fair to assume there might only be about 300,000 SS daggers out there? Again I'm only talking about authentic and original . Thank you for your response.

[Dave H]

AZkid,

No, the number of SS daggers made is not listed that I have ever seen. The only numbers published were for the initial order of SA and SS daggers with the Rohm inscription.

Even the 3million SA daggers is not firmly established. So all the numbers are really calculated guesses.

How many SS Men were there ?

- Wikipedia thinks about 250,000 Waffen SS and 1,000,000 Allgemeine SS existed.
- The highest SS serial number I have seen is mentioned is 468,239

How many SS daggers were made ?

Less SS daggers have turned up than SA daggers. This is because there were more SA men, and:

- The SA were more numerous early in the Third Reich when daggers were being issued

- The big SS growth came later when dagger issue had ceased, so proportionally less would have been issued

- Also - just my opinion - The SS knew they were would be prosecuted by the Allied so more daggers got pitched in the rivers and lakes, etc. So the survival rate for SS daggers vs issued daggers is probably less than for SA.

One of the best clues, again my opinion, may be relative price. From what I've seen SS daggers go for 4-5 times the money that SA daggers do. That may be an indicator of survival numbers. But SS are more popular with collectors .. which pushed up the price.

A couple of books I'd suggest:

- The Order of the Death's Head by Keinz Hohne. Done in the 1950s. Best detail of the SS available

- Tom Wittmann's SS dagger book: Wittmann Antique Militaria - Thomas T. Wittmann Reference Books
Besides being really interesting, this book will save you money if you collect SS edged weapons.

More Questions ?

Dave
dave@germandaggers.com

[AZkid]

Dave, thank you for your very in depth and knowledgeable response. It reminds me of the WW2 German coins I collect (that's more my field of interest and knowledge). Though almost all coins have the total number minted documented, they were ordered to be destroyed so nobody has a count on how many remain.
I have a painting by a popular American artist and my appraiser told me it would go up in value approximately 3-5% a year. Can I expect my dagger to do the same? If so my son will be really happy when it gets handed down to him. At this time I really can't think of any more questions. Thank you for all your help.

[MAP]

No one can devine the future value of these or any item. There are just too many variables and assumptions.

We can all make educated guesses, but as they say in the financial markets, past performance is not indicative of future results.

So, collect for the enjoyment and learning and you will never be disappointed.

[DavK]

I have a painting by a popular American artist and my appraiser told me it would go up in value approximately 3-5% a year. Can I expect my dagger to do the same?

I would expect that. But even if it is true, in current inflation rates it would mean that while the nominal value goes up, the real value is stagnant in best case, or maybe even slightly depreciates.
In my experience, antiquities are good investment to evade inflation, but in most cases (i.e. generally, and not in this specific case) they do not gain value in real terms.

I recently sold an item I bought 12 years ago. I got 2,5x the original price for it. So I "made" money, or at least it seems so. But if I look at the prices (general living costs, not militaria prices) 12 years ago, I didnt make any. 200 eur 12 years ago would buy me the same amount of cheesburgers at McDonalds as 500 eur this year.

[Dave H]

What I have seen over 50+ years is that SS daggers have increased their value as well or better than any other dagger. The other thing I have noticed is that daggers tend to up in spurts, then lie lie for a bit.

[AZkid]

I want to thank everyone for their responses. I have gained insight through other people's different perspective but isn't that what forums are for? The response from MAP really hit home as he says "So, collect for the enjoyment and learning and you will never be disappointed". So I will go back to enjoying collecting my NAZI & ancient coins but don't be surprised if I pop back on this forum again in a year or so asking about the authenticity of an SA dagger! Thanks guys!

[Dave H]

MAP is 100% correct. Collect for the joy of owning.

[Watchdog]

Larry and Gerrit,

The OP asked: "So here’s the big question: Is this authentic and original or a fake? Thank you!" .... so why predicate the answer on what it cost ?

I agree entirely with Larry here. The cost in the context (bought with self confessed limited knowledge) is very relevant as a potential red flag along the lines of "If it looks too good to be true...etc". As such that is a very separate issue from that of authenticity as we often see here where someone adopts a "shoot first and ask questions later" approach only to be sadly let down.

A salient purpose here is to exchange information between like minded collectors to the benefit of all particularly the less experienced.

I am sure you did not intend it but you post comes across as somewhat "spiky" and something one might hear from a collector to whom cost is irrelevant which is all well and good if you are expert enough to be always right (I don't know anybody like that!) but very dangerous if you are a newbie with little expertise.

As stated this appears to be a good piece and I am sure Larry et al will expand but I do not believe that cost is "predicated" as you put it and it would be wrong to exclude it when an inexperienced collector is seeking advice. Just to say "good" or "bad" with no further expansion is fine in other forums but not here where things tend to be discussed rather more fully.

Regards

Mark

[Watchdog]

MAP is 100% correct. Collect for the joy of owning.

Absolutely, I have never bought a piece as an investment but only because I liked the piece. However, the more expensive an item is (particularly in the context of ones' own means) the greater the potential for disappointment if you make a mistake. Unless of course money really is no object and is of little concern to the buyer.

Regards

Mark