Rich Abr. Herder with von dem Bach etching

[Drambejz]

Hi guys,

came over this dagger and I'm curious what are your thoughts.
Book of T. Wittmann doesn't help because there are only two known daggers so far so the statement about maker doesn't sound that solid to me.

Got this email reply on my additional question about it:

"In reference to the district numbers, ours is ‘II’ for Dresden, as opposed to Pepera’s III for Berlin. We can absolutely guarantee that this is an original Von Dem Bach inscribed example and the dagger and scabbard have always been together.
As said previously, this dagger was a veteran bring-back and had remained in the lady’s possession ever since. We are happy to issue you with a signed Certificate of Authenticity to accompany it."

Seller didn't stated name of the veteran hiding it behind confidientality but they told me they bought from the same person multiple medals dedicated to Pte. T. Fletcher, Hereford. R.


Not sure about the etching because as one expert I know said: "Its basicaly impossible to tell if the etching is original or later one." He will look at it when it will arrive.

Im not familiar with amount of fakes of von dem Bach inscription and Im aware of risk of these bring back stories. Im interested in your opinion guys.

Thank you for your time.



Edit: Adding one front blade look aswell

[Larry C]

Hi Drambez

first off thankyou for excellent close up photos ...they are a great help

COAs are as valuable as the paper they are written on.
Without having it in hand..leaves me thinking there is no depth at all to the dedication ..and Im seeing a pattern over all the blade and dedication. I will elaborate on that later.

Glad you brought it here as even the dealer has admitted they dont know about the etch.
Sorry to say Im not convinced ...or not as of yet.

I will post more later about this..and also other thoughts and opinions are welcome.

can you provide a pg number here for the community for those who have Tom Wittmanns SS reference where it is seen? Please

Regards Larry

[Drambejz]

Glad you brought it here as even the dealer has admitted they dont know about the etch.


can you provide a pg number here for the community for those who have Tom Wittmanns SS reference where it is seen? Please

Hi Larry, first of all thank you for your comment! I look forward for next ones.

Dealer seems convinced its original bring back piece. They just dont want to share the name of vet directly. They gave pretty good hints tho.

I would love to provide those page numbers but sadly I dont have this book at home yet (takes awhile over the pond ). I was told its there. If anyone has it and can confirm it screenshots or readable photos of these pages to private message would be very much appreciated!

[Drambejz]

can you provide a pg number here for the community for those who have Tom Wittmanns SS reference where it is seen? Please

Got my hands on photos of the pages. Its 244 - 245 in Exploring The Dress Daggers Of The German SS by Thomas Wittmann

It says there were several daggers with this inscription and nothing specific about maker marks.

[Larry C]

Ok I will look into it after work

Thanks for the page numbers

[Larry C]

Well after looking intently into the dedication as i stated above,,,there is no depth to be seen at all ...and with those excellent photos ..i can not understand why ..depth is not seen.
I am seeing some discrepancies which I can not elaborate on right now...without furthering a fakers craft.

Also ...I can not make a good determination due to the dedication.
The details are correct that Herder had Rohm daggers...but due to the age grey seen on the blade..which is a fakers craft on covering over the truth.
Not saying this is the case here..but it can be because of the dedication and the commonly seen age grey on daggers trying to be something it is not.

I would say for now....greater photos or better lighting will help alot.
It may or may not be what its supposed to be.

Sorry for now..but not comfortable with it ..and there is alot of junk going around these days.

Better photos please of the dedication..and if they cant be provided ...then you will know its junk.

Regards Larry

[Drambejz]

Got the detailed photos Larry and Im happy with it. Looks good to me

[Larry C]

Im ok with that and is everything I needed to see ..other thoughts and opinions welcome as well.

Regards Larry

[Billy G]

This dedication is similar to that of the Fürth Sportschule. Where do you establish a baseline as to what’s accepted and what isn’t? And even if you can find what a period example should look like, how do you establish exactly when the dedication was applied?

It would seem to me an awful lot of faith must be put in a dealer’s story about how and when a dagger was acquired. Remember that plenty of vets bought stuff at the shows in the 1960’s when fakes were already prevalent. And at the end of the day, it’s all just a story. That’s how I thought of this dagger when I first saw it months back and nothing I’ve seen brings any more clarity.

[Drambejz]

Thank you for your opinion Billy. Fair points.

This dedication is similar to that of the Fürth Sportschule. Where do you establish a baseline as to what’s accepted and what isn’t? And even if you can find what a period example should look like, how do you establish exactly when the dedication was applied?

I don't see any other similarity with that one other then font of the text. The period example is in mentioned book and on google you can aswell find the one dagger Mr. John Pepera had in his collection.
The truth is it's basicaly impossible to tell if the etching was made during TR or later as I mentioned in the first post here. On the other hand I didn't find any mention about faking this dedication (which is no proof ofcourse). I've seen Himmlers and some Röhms but no Bachs.

It would seem to me an awful lot of faith must be put in a dealer’s story about how and when a dagger was acquired. Remember that plenty of vets bought stuff at the shows in the 1960’s when fakes were already prevalent. And at the end of the day, it’s all just a story. That’s how I thought of this dagger when I first saw it months back and nothing I’ve seen brings any more clarity.

I am aware of fakes from 60s and some extremes like dagger which never existed in that period ("hungarian paratrooper dagger" for example). It's history which is not perfectly documented and in some cases we have daggers which weren't plenty so we are working with probability not certainity. I'm willing to take the risk with this one.

And hopefuly I will be able to find more info about it because as Wittmann stated in the book these daggers were distributed under his command in sudetes. Mentioned Breslau is 60km away which gave me also kind of personal attachment to find out more about this period.


P.S. Don't take it like I'm close minded. I really appreciate your comment Billy