I think this helmet is legitimate. I can appreciate a studious approach to evaluating a helmet but sometimes you can nit pick an item to death. Not everything is cut and dried and textbook. I am not even a fan of chicken wire helmets but I would have no problem owning this one. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and this is just mine. Experience and gut feelings play a part too and should not be ignored.
Cheers,
Terry
wire exhibiting the "zinc pest" !
Rich,
Here are a couple of photos that show what you say the wire should exhibit. I am curious though, and again not questioning your expertise, but how do you determine the age of the wire...is there a chart showing the different sizes of the zinc/galvanized reaction areas that determine this..ie 50yrs...60yrs..75yrs old.. etc.? I have also included a photo of the liner band for your review...Also, just a little off the subject here, why do some WW2 German badges that are zinc/zinc plated exhibit a lot of pitting and finish loss and others appear as if they were manufactured yesterday? I'm sure environment makes a difference but I have personally observed badges still in the original issue packets/issue cases that were never issued and the difference can be night and day even if stored in the same environment. I am just trying to learn here as I am not the expert and am looking for answers from an expert such as your self! I have over the years handled many different items 3rd Reich related and I am profoundly/sincerely interested in your expertise and experience concerning the different metals and processes used during the 3rd Reich time frame and in Europe. Is there a difference in quality pre war, war time and late war? Were short cuts taken as the allies moved in? I always thought this was the case. On another and final note, I once had the opportunity to offer for sale an original early period Political Leader's uniform that the vet had stored in a dark closet and all the stitching (cotton) still reacted to UV lighting after 70+ years!
I'm in agreement with Terry. I still think is is most likely a good wire.by M38
I own many helmets but none are wired. Primarily due to the extreme difficulty in authenticating them.
From what is being said, this helmet was as close as pulling it out of the foot locker yourself. If so, this should be documented as much as possible. With wires, provenace is extremely important.
"Please", Thank You" and proper manners appreciated
My greatest fear is that one day I will die and my wife will sell my guns for what I told her I paid for them
"Don't tell me these are investments if you never intend to sell anything" (Quote: Wife)
I like this helmet, I also agree with Terry M38 and would be pleased to own this lid but I also don't get hung up on owning a helmet with some wire on it. The zinc corrosion on the wire shows some age, but I couldnt say for certain that the wire is as old as 75 plus years old. I don't see any scuff marks around the helmet skirt where the chicken wire is fastened to it? As a collector I would appreciate it more with some associated pictures or written memories from the veteran if he was able to be asked.
That's what I was looking for. The oxide build up is what happens over age. the tough part is understanding how long that took.Rich,
Here are a couple of photos that show what you say the wire should exhibit. I am curious though, and again not questioning your expertise, but how do you determine the age of the wire...is there a chart showing the different sizes of the zinc/galvanized reaction areas that determine this..ie 50yrs...60yrs..75yrs old.. etc.? I have also included a photo of the liner band for your review...Also, just a little off the subject here, why do some WW2 German badges that are zinc/zinc plated exhibit a lot of pitting and finish loss and others appear as if they were manufactured yesterday? I'm sure environment makes a difference but I have personally observed badges still in the original issue packets/issue cases that were never issued and the difference can be night and day even if stored in the same environment. I am just trying to learn here as I am not the expert and am looking for answers from an expert such as your self! I have over the years handled many different items 3rd Reich related and I am profoundly/sincerely interested in your expertise and experience concerning the different metals and processes used during the 3rd Reich time frame and in Europe. Is there a difference in quality pre war, war time and late war? Were short cuts taken as the allies moved in? I always thought this was the case. On another and final note, I once had the opportunity to offer for sale an original early period Political Leader's uniform that the vet had stored in a dark closet and all the stitching (cotton) still reacted to UV lighting after 70+ years!
Galvanizing and zinc/aluminum content material when produced has many disadvantages. Each batch used to produce items and hot dipped galvanized steel have slight differences in the ores used to produce the final result. Atmospheric conditions during production and hot dipping require humidity control, even today some producers have a difficult time with this as galvanizing is an imperfect art.
If the item produced was exposed during it's colling period, which is one of the most important factors of galvanized/zinc/aluminum produced items, to humidity the product suffers later with early onset irregular corrosion. Galvanized/zinc/aluminum (btw, there are other minute % of metallic substances involved in this but these are closely related on the galvanic materials chart. the further apart they are a more rapid rise in corrosion rate occurs) passivates (rusts/corrodes) naturally as oxygen is the most corrosive known chemical due to humidity and air borne contaminates - everything that is metal rusts and corrodes when exposed to oxygen. During this cooling period a natural passivation occurs that protects the base material. A single imperfection ends up resulting in a charged corrosion cell that rapidly decays from the point to eat the surface with corrosion around that area.
If the production area is influenced in any way by a rapid rise in humidity from where humidity control is overwhelmed by sudden door openings in the production area during the cooling cycle, the items face early onset disastrous corrosion, typically these items are trashed and the manufacturer starts over.
Even stacking hot dipped galvanized items together, or having the items in contact with one another after cooling, oxygen cannot get to the surfaces where each different itme touches one another. corrosion starts at that contact point.
For instance, I worked with HIDOT, and we discovered through Americas largest galvanizers that stacking guard (they call them guide rails now) rails together for space savings in base yards causes early onset corrosion to occur. HIDOT had to store these guide rails where they would not touch one another. After installation & at their lap joints and fastener points corrosion begins rapidly. I am in Hawaii and salt laden moist trade winds causes this issue as galvanizing fails early on from the effects of strong constant salt laden wind.
And there is a major difference in galvanizing as this procedure is near if not over 100 years old. As time moved ahead the technology matured. Then came the EPA and there was a upend in the process as the process is by no means safe for humans to be exposed to. A lot of vapor containment, life cycle of chemicals used, purification of batch tanks......the process in WWII Europe had the advantage of chemicals and materials for use but lacked proper atmospheric controls. Today it seems as if the industry has finally found it's stride and consist ant results are seen.
They only issues they cannot control is end user use, environmental exposure and damages from impact to the galvanized finish. Once a portion is damaged where the coating has been ground off by steel against steel impact, corrosion starts at a high rate and eventually the whole rail that was impacted is destroyed.
Zinc/aluminum/galvanizing loves to corrode, it was made to do that but once removed from a portion of the area it was applied to the metal suffers a rapid corrosion demise.
Those medals the ended up with more corrosion on them undoubtably had surface damage and some so slight the naked eye could not see it.
Hope this helps.
In the end I am more convinced from the images you show that the wire could of been applied WWII period. As it has been pointed out if you can get the vets statement to attest to the helmet found as is you just may have a winner.
In the mean time here is some food for thought on the subject of galvanizing and corrosion rates:
Corrosion Rate of Galvanized Steel | American Galvanizers Association
I agree 100%
One point I forgot to mention was the answer to the question "how can you tell the age of the galvanized oxide build up?" There is no definitive gauge to it, it only comes from years of inspection of galvanization condition of assemblies and where galvanized materials are used.
If you look at newly galvanized wire a gloss shows up on it. Over time the gloss is reduced to a satin look. That's caused by the passivation process where the oxides protect the metal substrate as well as the galvanized finish surface. Over time as the oxides build up the take on the whitish powder look which is a tightly bound oxide. As that increases by size and depth the aging process is in full effect. Depending on the locale of where the material is, as the oxides consume the galvanized coating the orange oxides begin to appear. This process is known as the sacrificial anode eating itself to protect the substrate. Once the sacrificial surface coating exposes the base steel, the process hyper accelerates to the point of holing the steel substrate.
To all!
I really appreciate all the feedback!! And a big shout out of thanks to Rich for his informative insight and expertise on the properties of the Galvanized plating process/processes! I would like to restate the reason I offered this particular helmet for review.... As I had mentioned in one of the posts, I have handled many ORIGINAL WW2 German helmets over the years with most coming directly from veteran estates. There have also been many that have come from nice collections and the only provenance I had was from the collector or collector's estate. This example was acquired directly from the vet's estate and is the 1st wired helmet that I have acquired this way. I have handled a few wired helmets and of course more times than not they have been suspect. The "ole" gut feeling on this one was right up there in the close to 100% good range. I suppose I could go on and on about items I have been fortunate to have in hand that many opinions were received and it usually all boils down to the simple fact that having in hand and getting that "feel" does and will make a difference in an assessment on a particular item, especially when that particular item, whether being a badge, insignia, head gear, helmet etc. has a potential high value. I don't collect anymore, but certainly enjoy having the opportunity to offer items on behalf of a veteran's and/or collector's estate! This particular helmet will be offered in the near future along with many other 3rd Reich and WW2 U.S. items. I wish everyone a blessed and Happy New Year, and again, thank you for all of the current and possible future feedback! ( I will keep checking the thread!)
Daryl Bagwell
I don’t own a wire, but look at most that are posted. This one ticks a lot of boxes that match up with what I see most collectors liking in a wire lid. I’m too cheap to spend market price on one, but if I saw this one at a decent price I wouldn’t hesitate to pick it up.
Are you listing the helmet here or in an auction?
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