rare HJ Knife (Honour Knife)

[Wilhelm Saris]

Maybe of interest for some of you. This announcement was published
May 11, 1933 in the "Verordnungsblatt der Reichsjugendführung der NSDAP":

Attachment 1090149

The announcement specifies that no bayonets or daggers were allowed to be
worn with the HJ-uniform and an official dagger (Fahrtenmesser) soon was
to be expected. Okay, we know boys and leaders liked it to offend to the rules,
but for this they were to be reprimanded.

Maybe of interest:



In this order from the highest HJ-leader von Schirach from December 5, 1933
he mentions the use of pistols, bayonets or whatever by members of the youth
organizations (he does not specifically mention the HJ), during the period of
struggle and the taken over of power by the nazis. With an immediate entry he
did forbid the use of such by (any kind) of member of youth-organizations. He
just allowed the use of the official dagger (Fahrtenmesser) by HJ and DJ.
He also mentions when it is needed to carry a weapon (the guards for the
highest commands), this was allowed, but with a permit from the police.

I would like to see catalogues or leaflets, offering this early "dagger"-material,
as well as photographs with the wearing of any kind of dagger by youth between
1932 and 1933, actually before the summer of 1933.
Someone must have something, isn't?

[Larry C]

Fred, this photo is not new too me. You posted a photo, which I posted
a while ago on a forum (this photo was handed over to me many years
ago by a collector - Steve Alley - for use in my planned headgear-books).
The photo is dated June 2, 1933.

This lad is not HJ, but from another youth-organization. He is not HJ
is to be seen by the wearing of two cockades (see close-up). The HJ
never did wear such cockades.

Attachment 1090375

My guess is the lad is from the Scharnhorstbund, the youngster for
the Bund der Frontsoldaten - Stahlhelm. It looks as he has their shield-
symbol in the grip (see best posisble close-up).

Attachment 1090376

If they wear the insignia as with this photo, there normally should not be
a dagger worn:

Attachment 1090377 Attachment 1090378

These two lads are Scharnhorst:

Attachment 1090379

The only ones, allowed to wear a bayonet were those from the guarding unit
"Wachgefolgschaft Baldur von Schirach". They even did wear a Troddel
with the bayonet (just a close-up from such a guy):

Attachment 1090384

I quickly checked some over 1,000 photographs from the Hitler-Jugend.
With only one photograph, where the uniform from before the introduction of
the new official HJ-uniform, a dagger was worn (vaguely visible). Only the
commanding person does wear a dagger, but in the grip nothing is to be seen.

Sorry, we are in some way straying away from the topic, which is daggers!

The "shield /symbol" that appears on the grip is really a grip retaining loop with a snap button.

Thankyou Wim as always for your valuable contributions to the forum and to the Edged weapon topic.

[HPL2008]

The dagger was worn in front. With an order from May 2, 1934 this was no longer allowed. From then on the dagger had to be worn at the left side (the position of a Seitengewehr). This was caused by many accidents (Verordnungsblatt der RJF), order nr. 444, specifically Fahrtenmesser.

The kind of accidents that endagered the future procreation of the "Germanic blood", I would imagine...

Sorry, we are in some way straying away from the topic, which is daggers!

I don't think anybody minds your straying; this is all excellent material!

[Wilhelm Saris]

The "shield /symbol" that appears on the grip is really a grip retaining loop with a snap button

Larry C: Now I had a better look and yes, you are right. I think it was too early this morning when
I scanned the photo. I really may have hoped to see the shield, as with none of the other available
photographs I have seen things that were different. I am eagerly waiting for photographs to see other
things then a HJ-diamond in the middle for the grip or so-called HJ-daggers/bayonets with other features!

This is what I could find in my files from about April 10, 1933 from a supplier for goods, uniforms
and equipment for all kinds of youth-organizations (Das Rüsthaus Deutscher Bünde: Willy Nufer,
Offenbach am Main). The official HJ-dagger was not even included yet, nor were any of the
daggers/bayonets about which this thread started:



and what about this from Max Müller from Nürnberg from October 1933,
a bayonet for children, but with a length of 24.0 cm:



HPL2008: as it was a thread about daggers, I came up with headgear and things. So, I thought
I left "the track"? But as Arnold says: I am baaack!

[Frogprince]

Wilhelm, Thank you for your correction , now I can put a date and proper heading on the photo which I found interesting because of all the extra items he had with him. Also for all of the information you are sharing which gives us a better picture of what life was like in that time. Which might from time to time leave the "track" a little (I'm speaking generally here). But also provides the context of when and how etc. the different blades were worn, along with the period published documentation which I find very interesting. Best Regards, Fred

[Anderson]

Wow!, some scholarly information on this thread. Well done all!

[Wilhelm Saris]

i would like to see or hear about catalogues or leaflets, offering this early "dagger"-material,
as well as photographs with the wearing of any kind of dagger by youth between 1932 and 1933,
actually before the summer of 1933. Someone must have something, isn't?

nobody??

[Larry C]

Period catalogs do exist..its a matter of finding them as most data was destroyed in the Solingen Bombing raids by the Allies.

Leaflets are next to nill in finding anything of that nature ...again..its a matter of who saved it during the period or who picked up one of these by a Vet after the war.

Regards Larry

[Wilhelm Saris]

Larry C - me and some of my friends do have quite some catalogues and price-lists
from all kinds of manufacturers, but such from daggers etc. are hardly ever found.

In the past (the early 1970's) I once was invited at the Stadtarchiv from Lüdenscheid,
as I wanted to know if they had sales-catalogues. It turned out I had more to offer as
they could. Yeah, the Assmann, but others they hardly had. Most was destroyed after
the war, they told (as they had informed around while they wanted to add such material
to their files). Most manufacturers did not want to have to do with the TR at all! In those
days I also contacted many manufacturers there. Some even denied they ever had made
stuff for the TR. Not true of course as I had either a catalogue of leaflets from that
particular concern.....
These days there is more to be found as 40 years ago!