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RZM code M7 Dagger makers who DID NOT MAKE HJ knives
There were 129 companies that were accepted as RZM M7 political dagger makers, which included the Hitler Youth knife. So which one's never made the HJ knife? Not an easy question to answer as most data bases simply lists all the makers, not what they didn't make.
It occurred to me that a crude but acceptable methodology might be to employ the power of the Google search engine and search "HJ maker M7 code and name". That hopefully would identify makers where no dealer or seller has ever listed a HJ knife made by that maker, and or identify any such marked knife discussed on a Forum.
So that's what I did and each maker identified I checked any link to view images, those that turned up on images or mentioned (apart from in a total RZM code list of which various site have), by noting those M7 makers with no evidence of a HJ knife for sale or under discussion I sorted out the likely "non producers". This is of course raw crude data and may not be fully accurate, because a very rare small production producer may not attract attention of the search engine. Such a maker's knife may never have been shown on the net. For these one I need readers to identify makers listed where they have an HJ knife by that maker. That name can then be removed as a confirmed maker (photo evidence please). If no one can challenge the list over time, it must be accurate.
Why would this be useful? In my research to date several of these non producer names have appeared on faked HJ knives identified on various forums.
To date i have gone systematically through the M7 list to the half way point. I will complete the other half tomorrow but thought I would post these initial "non HJ producers" so others can comment on any known errors. So remember this is raw data, so far between M7/1 and M7/79 I have identified 27 dagger makers who DID NOT make the HJ knife. So of first 80 makers (two had same number) 33% did not make the HJ knife. Here they are, see what you think;
M7/4 August Muller KG
M7/15 Carl u. Robert Linder
M7/16 Justus Brenger "Justinuswerk"
M7/17 A. Werth
M7/22 Wilhelm Weltersbach
M7/24 Reinh. Weyersburg
M7/39 Franz Steinhoff
M7/41 Rudolf Schmidt
M7/46 Emil Gierling
M7/47 Paul Ebel
M7/48 Otto Simon
M7/49 Friedrich Herder
M7/50 Gebruder Herder
M7/53 Nach.Gustav Weyersburg
M7/54 Gottfried Muller
M7/61 Carl Tillmans
M7/63 Herder & Engels
M7/64 Friedr. Geigis
M7/69 H.A. Erbe AG
M7/70 David Malsch
M7/71 Herm. Hahn
M7/74 Friedr. Aug. Schmitz
M7/76 Herbeck & Meyer
M7/77 Gustav Schmeider
M7/78 Herm. Linder & Sohne
M7/79 C.Bertram Reinhard & Sohne.
M7/81 Karl Tiegel - ( Vindicated and did produce HJ Knives )
M7/82 Gebruder Born
M7/86 Kuno Liemscheid & co
M7/87 Maich & Ambrom
M7/88 J.Schmidt & Sohn Juliuswerk
M7/90 Eickelnberg & Mack
M7/91 Carl Spitzer
M7/92 Peter Daniel Krebs
M7/95 J.A.Schmidt & Sohn
M7/96 Drees & Sohn
M7/97 F Koeller & co
M7/98 Ernst Erich Witte
M7/99 Frank Weinrank (Wien)
M7/100 and M7/102 Franz Pils & Sohn, Wien.
M7/101 Fritz Weber, Wien
M7/103 josef Hack, Steyr
M7/105 Rudolf Wurser
M7/106 Georg Kerschbaumer
M7/107 not issued
M7/108 Karl Oschmann & co
M7/109 Thomas Weilpotz
M7/110 Felbeck & Pickard (solingen)
M7/111 H.Herder
M7/113 Berndorfer/ Arthur Krupp
M7/114 Hugo Linder
M7/115 Erhardt Reich
M7/116 Franz Frenzel (Sudetenland)
M7/163 E. & A. Helbig
M7/183 Ernst Witte
That leaves nine code numbers; 941,1051,1053,1164,1166,1197,1211,1221 issued mainly to manufacturers who had an alternative number. These numbers don't appear to have been used on HJ knives, but used on other daggers like the SS.
The tally up shows 54 NON MAKERS of HJ knives.
The number of makers who made HJ knives (while RZM codes were issued) comes to 63. So a little over half the RZM M7 coded manufacturers actually made the HJ knife.
Seven makers had two sets of M7 codes.
One more thing to consider; some early makers of the HJ knife may not have been awarded an RZM contract so never had a M7 code.
But the purpose here is to identify those blade makers who DID NOT make the HJ knife. If you can spot any error please post a photo of the HJ knife marks and the list will be amended. Thank you.
Last edited by Larry C; 10-21-2021 at 04:54 PM.
Reason: remove Backhaus from list
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12-06-2017 11:37 AM
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by
Anderson
There were 129 companies that were accepted as RZM M7 political dagger makers, which included the Hitler Youth knife.
Did you ever try to find out what manufacturers did loose their contract, as when it was
revoked, withdrawn or whatever?
Not even fifty dagger-manufacturers were listed to have a permission in 1938. I thought there
were just over 100 of them in 1935. So, about 50% lost its permission between 1935 and 1938.
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That's true Wilhelm, what i think this analysis will show when complete is that there were a lot fewer HJ maker than commonly believed. On one Forum i saw they said there was 95 companies producing the HJ knife, I think that's too high. As for the revoked contracts, that's correct. By early 1938 M7 RZM codes had been assigned to 82 manufacturers, but 34 had been revoked. Between 1938-43 a further 36 M7 codes were assigned but 17 more withdrawn. However some of these revoked contractors did produce small runs of HJ knives. For example M7/34 Rudolf Jacobs contract withdrawn January 1938, but HJ knives were produced. I suspect Jacobs was the victim of Aryanisation.
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For your convenience. Here the RZM survey from 1938
with the dagger manufacturers at that moment:
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List of NON MAKERS of the Hitler Youth knife now completed.
A couple of quick headlines; The number of RZM M7 coded blade makers that actually made the HJ knife is only 63. That is much lower than commonly believed by collectors. I found there were 55 NON MAKERS of the HJ knives (these manufacturers we can assume made other daggers) so a little under half never made the HJ knife.
Some makers had more than one number code but it appears that the "highest number" that appeared on a HJ knife was "M7/118"
If you are fuming with a "Karl Tiegel M7/81" HJ knife at home, or something similar, post a photo and I'll remove the name from the NON MAKER list. Thanks
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by
Anderson
List of NON MAKERS of the Hitler Youth knife now completed.
A couple of quick headlines; The number of RZM M7 coded blade makers that actually made the HJ knife is only 63. That is much lower than commonly believed by collectors. I found there were 55 NON MAKERS of the HJ knives (these manufacturers we can assume made other daggers) so a little under half never made the HJ knife.
Some makers had more than one number code but it appears that the "highest number" that appeared on a HJ knife was "M7/118"
If you are fuming with a "Karl Tiegel M7/81" HJ knife at home, or something similar, post a photo and I'll remove the name from the NON MAKER list. Thanks
Anderson that Tiegel did produce HJ knives, as this page of "Der Klinge" stated.
On this page shown are producers that produced SA & HJ knives.
Copyright by Greinert.
Last edited by gerrit; 01-11-2018 at 01:23 PM.
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Speak of the Devil! What a great find Ger and Tiegel is vindicated.
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HJ M7/38 dagger
Hi, in this video you can see a HJ dagger with rzm code M7/38 together with the catalogue.
I'm not sure if this one is on your list or not but in your first post, it wasn't in your list of makers.
Kind Regards,
BL
Hitler Youth dagger in very good condition - YouTube
EDIT:
My bad I did not see your list in the first post was the "non makers" list. So M7/38 is not on your list as it should be.
Enjoy the video anyways.
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Hi guys i have 3 HJ Knifes by makers who are on your list, they are rzm7/61 Carl Tillmans. rzm7/91 Carl Spitzer and rzm7/103 Josef Hack, the 91 i can get pic of no problem but the 61 and 103 are very faintly marked , i will try to add the pics
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