Definitely IMO a minefield, if it's the one I'm thinking of it's a fake. That type (intentionally) not making it into George Wheeler's book. Best Regards, Fred
Definitely IMO a minefield, if it's the one I'm thinking of it's a fake. That type (intentionally) not making it into George Wheeler's book. Best Regards, Fred
Hi,
the right SS bayonets of the model S84 / 98 carry no acceptance marks and rarely only a manufacturer's stamp.
Especially in the early days was also on revised S84 / 98n.A. used from the First World War.
After 1940, the units of the Waffen-SS, which were subordinate to the Wehrmacht, were also equipped by the Wehrmacht. That means they got regular S84 / 98.
At the latest here, no distinction can be determined and potentially every S84 / 98 could have been run in the Waffen-SS.
In addition, the Waffen-SS was also supplied with booty material. Priority here also material for the system 98, so bsp. Polish Wz22 to 29/39 and Vz24 bayonets. Here completely without SS markings.
I consider this entirely modern and "upgrading" appropriate.
The frogs for the SS bags until about 1940 can be recognized, however, by the typical RZM markings with contract number.
These are models that were most likely to be used by the SS
2
Some nice examples there Sleepwalker, but as you point out while they MAY have been SS used, bayonets without a WaA mark usually simply indicates a German State Authority contract. So the example you show in #13 & #14 could equally have been used and issued to Polizei, Zoll, Zollgrenzschutz, Luftschutzpolizei, Bahnschutzpolizei, Postschutz and the SS.
But the SS under the Wehrmacht high command also got bayonet supplies from Wehrmacht stocks (which would have WaA marks). And if that wasn't murky enough the Postschutz later came under SS control and became "SS Postschutz" and later got their equiptment, possibly bayonets from SS stores.
So if anyone ever says "this is an SS bayonet" the question should be "Got any provenance"? because simply having an SS marked frog does not prove it was ever together during the TR era.
We also don't want to give the idea that a non WaA marked "behoerden" S84/98 is an "SS bayonet", if might be, but then again it might not.
In the early days of the Third Reich the German Army and other elements of the Wehrmacht used former Imperial/Weimar era arms to equip its forces (the same as the early period armed elements of the SS). There was also a period after WW I ended when there was civil unrest in different places, and some basically civilian sectors had their own armed paramilitary forces.
Unmarked early period manufacture service bayonets (for civil authorities) in circulation that with some examples have German Railway markings on them. There are also some mid-war period manufactured unmarked Behörden types that were probably held in reserve until near the end of the war. With my point really being that you have to look at a number of factors when trying to assess who used what and when.
Captured or otherwise acquired by the SS bayonets probably a topic of its own - here is one of my favorite “in use” pictures. Best Regards, Fred
Last edited by Larry C; 11-29-2019 at 11:05 PM. Reason: typo correction
Here's one I like, of a capture bayonet. From German Bayonets by John Walter.
In the early years the German Army was not favorably inclined to support the SS with arms from its reserves and/or contracts. The SS seeking by whatever way it could to acquire them such as purchases, and was even reported as “expropriating” some items like unit level arms (such as artillery). But as Sleepwalker stated that changed circa 1940.
The German Army/Wehrmacht then giving the SS all types of equipment including the latest and best as it became available. The picture a little less clear for some civil authorities there were still some later manufacture service bayonets for example to the Reichspost, with photos of some others possibly indicating mostly obsolete and/or foreign types as was the case with some 2nd or 3rd echelon Wehrmacht personnel.
The mid war Behörden types from the handful of makers were all probably maker marked if you take into account an example which was only partially erased, even as makers for reasons best known to them erased the “can” scabbard markings. The customer(s) for them unknown although IMO the German Police would be a likely choice, as the W-SS already had access to Wehrmacht funded equipment.
The bayonet frogs another “minefield”. One of the “RZM” types that comes to mind was an example that was actually a German Navy frog that some ‘genius’ aded a bogus “RZM” marking to (a while back it was a more observant AndyB who first spotted that fake). Since then I’ve seen others, early period frogs utilizing a type of marking (not RZM) consistent with other uniform items procured for the SS. Best Regards, Fred
Last edited by Larry C; 11-29-2019 at 11:05 PM.
by Anderson
Hi,
yes the differences between the unmarked pieces for the SS and German authorities are fluent.
The nature of the contract was similar because it does not concern orders for the Office of Armed Forces. Differences can be found in the acceptance marks of the police, the Reichsbahn or the Postschutz. At a certain point in time, no markings were applied there.
The German authorities had already been subordinated to the SS Reichssicherheitshauptamt at that time. The Postschutz had been incorporated into the Waffen-SS.
The statement that every police, etc. Bayonet as somehow also belongs to the SS is therefore not fundamentally wrong, even if very superficially.
The fact is that unmarked late pieces are not distinguishable between SS, police etc. These organizations but also all under the command of the SS were summarized.
Yes this is an unrepaired Polish Wz.28 or 29 with muzzle ring. The Polish bayonets were used in large numbers.Here's one I like, of a capture bayonet. From German Bayonets by John Walter.
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